Goblin Squad Member
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Would it be a good idea if NPC escalation hexes that are left alone long enough are allowed by the game to increase to the point where we find a full-scale invasion? At what point do we think the developers should program governing/limiting mechanisms to keep NPC populations reasonable?
Could evil kingdoms purposefully leave evil NPC populations to grow to invasion levels, to use them as shock troops and cannon fodder their Characters can exploit?
There is so much we don't know yet about the NPC escalation system. I am confident that Stephen and the rest of the design team are thinking it through carefully.
GW will be rolling out their idea of crowdforging, which I believe entails their asking specific questions about what we prefer at key decision points along the development path. This should be to learn which of available options we prefer. This system of crowdforging, assuming I have it conceptually right, would be beneficial because their design would suffer less 'scope creep'.
On the other end, our end, we can speculate all day but it will not cause the developers to deviate willy-nilly from their intent. But clearly we come up with good ideas, and not infrequently.
If our ideas are good then I suspect the design team talks about them, and conceivably a good idea can trigger a solution, rather as a catalyst might.
So how far should NPC escalations be allowed to grow?
Well we know that if left unchecked the population of NPCs would eventually reach a critical mass at which time it would begin spilling over into neighboring hexes. We also know that once the population reaches a certain number, a leader is spawned. Does this process replicate in the adjacent hexes? The initial spillage forms a root group which if left unchecked would grow on its own, and be augmented by continued spill over from the original hex, eventually growing until a leader is spawned for this hex etc...? Or would the populations of both hexes eventually reach some number causing a Lord to spawn which would lead all of the NPCs in a tidal wave of destruction?
I propose that not only "evil" NPCs escalate, but also neutral and good NPCs should escalate as well. When any two aligned groups meet that are natural enemies, they should seek to wipe each other out. This would check the populations somewhat as well as provide a more realistic atmosphere for adventurers to encounter. I also feel that these escalating groups should leave some sort of sign of their expanding sphere of influence. Some sort of marker visible to players, similar to how Americans (native) used to mark their territory. This would give warning that even if they don't encounter any NPCs, they are in the area and claim the territory as theirs. This would allow players some warning before they get swarmed by the mobs.
I'm not sure at which point the system should slow. Perhaps at first it should just be turned on "full" in a limited number of hexes that could be monitored to see how fast and how far things progress. The Devs can always introduce a natural enemy of the escalating mobs if the players are not able to suppress the escalation.
I am strongly in favor of multiple options in how players deal with NPCs. If a "good" settlement attacks "good" or neutral NPCs the should receive an alignment hit. But that brings the question of how they should handle the situation? Leave them to grow and take over hex after hex? Perhaps they could be convinced to move toward an unpopulated area away from players seeking to build settlements and harvest resources? I'm unsure of the answer here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Okay, leaving aside the central question I have about how seriously escalations could grow, what about inherent rewards in that escalation?
There has already been reference to a mechanic they were concidering to include artifacts that enhance a settlement, but should there also be chest or drops with player-desirable weapons/armor/jewellry/spell components?
Back onto the question of how escalated these NPC populations can grow, if an escalated NPC population spawns a leader and keeps on growing unchecked, would eventually an even higher tier leader emerge?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why limit escalation to unchecked populations?
If the orc vanguard is killed but the land not settled, why wouldn't they return in greater numbers?
If the normal predators are killed, there may be enough prey for a larger monster to move in.
If the cult is chased from their hidden shrine, wouldn't they plot revenge and start summoning demons?
If you kill all the monsters in the land, the mother of all monsters may decide to send you new and bigger ones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe the more PC interaction there has been with an unchecked population of NPC's can be a factor, i.e. the more 'known' the enclave is, the faster it escalates/more likely it is to come calling at the nearest town instead of quietly growing in isolation.
As to upper limits of escalation, I think losing the map to the NPCs should be remotely possible. No upper limit to escalation, if we ignore them long enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe the more PC interaction there has been with an unchecked population of NPC's can be a factor (...)
oh, yes. If you fight them but don't kill them, they should level up!
hmm.. 'stimulating' monsters to give your enemies tougher neighbours...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of the possibility of NPC populations to escalate without limit.. Imagine kingdoms of opposite alignments being required to join forces to combat an invasion from another place, or all the orc tribes uniting under a single warlord, with their goblin minions...
I wonder if the devs would consider forcing that sort of interaction onto players, would make for some interesting RPing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of the possibility of NPC populations to escalate without limit.. Imagine kingdoms of opposite alignments being required to join forces to combat an invasion from another place, or all the orc tribes uniting under a single warlord, with their goblin minions...
I wonder if the devs would consider forcing that sort of interaction onto players, would make for some interesting RPing.
Well, the gates of hell have opened to the North of the River Kingdoms, so... be careful what you wish for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Worse case scenario if they can keep growing, can we LOSE PFO?
Could petty infighting stop player kingdoms from seeing the larger threat, and have the whole of the Crusader Road run over with orcs or demons or what have you?
Probably not, though it's kind of funny to think about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW2 has mob escalations, that if unchecked, can take over NPC garrisons and small villages. From what I've seen, they stop at that point and just wait around to be killed. I would rather see them multiply and become more organized.
I'm all for letting the little buggers spread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW2 has mob escalations, that if unchecked, can take over NPC garrisons and small villages. From what I've seen, they stop at that point and just wait around to be killed. I would rather see them multiply and become more organized.
I'm all for letting the little buggers spread.
Ditto there, it would be downright awesome to see warring kingdoms have to drop everything they are doing, and join in the resistance from goblins, bugbears, orcs etc... that are just flat out devistating everything in their paths. Admitted there are scenerios where it could theoretically get too far out of hand. IE the bulk of the world is overtaken, and any attempted resistance gets splattered, then the facilities to manufacture gear to compeat against such a threat becomes moot, training halted etc... Though I'd say that could be managed with stealth nerfs etc... IE an invading force holding more than 10 hexes gets a bit weaker monsters etc... The cost of a player organization goes up exponentially the more hexes they control, that could be the explanation for monsters to have that weakness as well. Done as a soft cap rather than a hard blatently visible cap.
I think GW wants these big conflicts to be player-driven. Instead of an evil orc horde, it's an evil PKer kingdom. I do like the idea of groups having to work together to handle NPC threats, but I think Goblinworks won't. ;)
I've mentioned this in other threads, but don't believe it's been brought up here yet so ill go ahead and throw it out there. During his Fear the Boot interview Mark Kalmes mentioned that there are more ways of dealing with NPCs then just killing them. He specifically mentioned the possibilities of enlisting them, and/or allying with them. Obviously you couldn't do either if your at opposing alignments with the NPCs, but if our alignments are "neutral" to each other or better, you can at least attempt to communicate with them to seek some resolution other then battle.
Lots of potential problems with hiring the NPCs, but being as Mark mentioned it in two places during the interview, I figure they have given the matter some thought and maybe worked some of the problems out. Allying with an escalating group of NPCs brings the matter of "what the heck are you going to do with them?" To the forefront. After all they are building up in the next hex over. Maybe you can convince them to spread out into the hexes away from your settlement, or even convince them that another hex a few hexes away from yours would be a better place for them to be.
Anyway, hopefully we can get some more detailed info on how they are thinking in this area. It's possible that these options not apply to an escalating group, only to groups that spawn normally. That might be a better solution really and escalating NPCs could be considered hostile to any players they encounter. I really like the possibilities that having options brings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do like the idea of groups having to work together to handle NPC threats, but I think Goblinworks won't. ;)
Oh, I think that's exactly what they have in mind :)
From Adventure in the River Kingdoms:
Encampments: Encampments represent organized bands of monstrous humanoids actively engaged in trying to control their hex. They begin as fairly small, easy-to-eliminate camps, but left unchecked, they will escalate, becoming larger, more numerous and generating more and more powerful foes. Eventually they can overrun a hex and begin spreading to nearby hexes as well. If the people living in a hex don't regularly sweep their lands and the nearby region for encampments and deal with the ones they find, the residents may find themselves facing a full-blown horde with the potential to destroy even player created structures!
@Valandur, I fully expect to be able to go into my enemy's hex and, given the right circumstances, incite the NPCs there to make trouble for my enemy. Yes, that will be awesome :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, the gates of hell have opened to the North of the River Kingdoms, so... be careful what you wish for.I like the idea of the possibility of NPC populations to escalate without limit.. Imagine kingdoms of opposite alignments being required to join forces to combat an invasion from another place, or all the orc tribes uniting under a single warlord, with their goblin minions...
I wonder if the devs would consider forcing that sort of interaction onto players, would make for some interesting RPing.
Not to nitpick, but isn't it the gates of the Abyss that have opened?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Worse case scenario if they can keep growing, can we LOSE PFO?
Could petty infighting stop player kingdoms from seeing the larger threat, and have the whole of the Crusader Road run over with orcs or demons or what have you?
Probably not, though it's kind of funny to think about.
Always liked the idea of "time's arrow", but possibly a bit like permadeath: Just a bit extreme for persistent mmo as a business. :)
For sure Hex that is an NPC kingdom that want's to keep it that way. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not to nitpick, but isn't it the gates of the Abyss that have opened?Well, the gates of hell have opened to the North of the River Kingdoms, so... be careful what you wish for.I like the idea of the possibility of NPC populations to escalate without limit.. Imagine kingdoms of opposite alignments being required to join forces to combat an invasion from another place, or all the orc tribes uniting under a single warlord, with their goblin minions...
I wonder if the devs would consider forcing that sort of interaction onto players, would make for some interesting RPing.
Trying to trip me up with mere facts, eh?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Trying to trip me up with mere facts, eh?Not to nitpick, but isn't it the gates of the Abyss that have opened?Well, the gates of hell have opened to the North of the River Kingdoms, so... be careful what you wish for.I like the idea of the possibility of NPC populations to escalate without limit.. Imagine kingdoms of opposite alignments being required to join forces to combat an invasion from another place, or all the orc tribes uniting under a single warlord, with their goblin minions...
I wonder if the devs would consider forcing that sort of interaction onto players, would make for some interesting RPing.
Yep! Facts, like those Hordes from the Abyss, will bite you in the *rse every time!