Non-Lethal Damage and Bleed Damage

[TheKingsportCockroach]

So I'm fiddling around with a Rogue with a splash of Fighter that uses the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats. I know they can take the bleeding attack Ninja Trick but I was wondering how the bleed damage would work if you're dealing non-lethal damage. I think the bleed damage would be lethal and the normal damage wouldn't.

The reason I wonder is that it's hard to imagine a sap doing bleed damage, and whenever I raise an eyebrow about these things there's something in the RAW that says I can do it.

Thoughts?

[Mystic Lemur]

According to James Jacobs all bleed damage is lethal, but that it's GM's discretion how Bleed interacts with nonlethal damage.

If this has been clarified elsewhere, I'm not aware of it.

[Shar Tahl]

bleeding is lethal, life seeping out. you dont get better quickly from a bleeding wound

[Isil-zha]

I'd argue that a non-lethal weapon cannot inflict bleed damage.

[Umbranus]

Isil-zha wrote:

I'd argue that a non-lethal weapon cannot inflict bleed damage.

On which basis? The rules don't disallow it and even in RL you can cause someone to bleed from attacks that deal no real damage. I have seen people start bleeding very much after being hit by a padded weapon used for LARP (live action role playing). They had to be brought to hospitale and sewn up.

[Isil-zha]

Then that padded weapon didn't deal non-lethal damage ;)

dragging RL examples into this discussion seems a bit silly to me...

On the basis that a non-lethal weapon cannot be used to inflict lethal damage unlike the other way around.

[Umbranus]

Isil-zha wrote:

Then that padded weapon didn't deal non-lethal damage ;)

dragging RL examples into this discussion seems a bit silly to me...

On the basis that a non-lethal weapon cannot be used to inflict lethal damage unlike the other way around.

First I opened by saying that your assumption is not backed by the rules. Ony then did I drag in an RL example.

Second you can use a weapon normally dealing nonlethal to do lethal with -4 to hit just like the other way round.

In your homegames you can certainly houserule that you can't deal bleed damage with weapons dealing nonlethal damage.

[BillyGoat]

The way I see bleed damage from a non-lethal weapon, to use a reasonable RL example, would be impact trauma on sensitive areas.

Yes, the initial "non-lethal damage" of the sap is purely a disorienting blow to the head. However, that blow was strategically placed to rupture an artery, you're now taking "bleed damage", as your cranium slowly fills with blood, stifling thought processes and rendering you unconcious. Unfortunately, since all that blood in your brain will kill you, sooner or later, the "bleed damage" would still be lethal.

This sort of explanation can be used for bleed damage for any sort of non-lethal attack. It's just that the bleeding is internal, rather than external. The original injuries are anything but lethal. The side-effects of them, on the other hand...

Another example, you get punched in the lower ribs. The initial punch doesn't break any of your ribs (damage is "non-lethal"), but the lowest rib moves with the force of the punch (since it didn't break), and puts a small hole in the victim's lung. As the lung begins to collapse & possibly fill up with blood, the victim is now taking "bleed damage" and will eventually die.

Of course, none of this addresses the RAW question of whether or not a non-lethal weapon can cause bleed damage. It just provides a few rationalizations to explain the apparent contradiction of non-lethal attacks resulting in bleed damage.

As Umbranus says, nothing in the rules for non-lethal weapons dictates that non-lethal attacks cannot deal bleed damage, nor do the rules for various means of adding bleed damage to your attacks stipulate that these effects cannot be added to non-lethal weapons. Therefore, barring a rule that's been overlooked, non-lethal weapons may have bleed effects from various sources applied to them, and if you have trouble visualizing how, read the above examples.

[Shar Tahl]

Bleeding is a separate damage type that is independent of the weapon used. It doesn't care what the source was. If an attack is stated as non-lethal, but some component causes a bleed effect, then that part of the damage is lethal, while the weapon damage will be non-lethal. It isn't doing blunt bleed, slashing bleed, piercing bleed, cold bleed, fire bleed, etc.