| bartleby1982 |
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The scenario is that two acid fog spells are effecting a target. One interpretation of the rules is that only the strongest acid fog deals acid damage because;
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
The counter argument is that;
1. The clause is under a section about stacking magical effects like bonuses or penalties, and should not be interpreted as also effecting damage
2. Two acid fog spells effecting the same target, that are also the same strength, should both damage the target because the clause does not apply (Same effect and different strength for the rule vs. same effect and same strength for scenario).
- It makes no sense, however, that a 7d6 acid fog and 7d6 acid fog deal 14d6 while a 10d6 acid fog and a 4d6 acid fog deals 10d6. On the other hand, it also makes no sense that a 10d6 acid fog and a 4d6 acid fog do not deal 14d6 damage.
3. If energy substitution were applied to one of the acid fogs, changing its energy type to fire, then both should deal damage because it is no longer the same effect. This demonstrates that the amount of damage dice is unchanged, and supports the logical argument that if you have a bunch of acid in a cloud, and then create an effect that adds more acid, that additional acid would also cause damage.
The Rebuttal to those three points is that;
An invalid rules placement concern. The larger section, of which the rules fall under, clearly applies to all magic. There is no indication (especially given rules that did not contain elemental substitution as a concern when they were written) that there is any conflict here. Two or more spells operating in the area that are otherwise the same, only the strongest ONE applies. You get to pick which strongest ONE means in the event there are more than one contender for the role.
RedDogMT
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Hey bartleby1982. Below is the entire section for "Combining Magic Effects" (included for clarity). Each section explains how different types of spell effects are handled. The clause for Different Bonus Types is actually unrelated to Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths.
The option in Bold is the important one. For Acid Fogs of differing strength, the notation in bold is the important one. The stronger acid fog prevails. The weaker casting has no effect unless the stronger casting duration ends.
Combining Magic Effects
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn't have a type stacks with any bonus.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.
Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject's ability to act. Mental controls that don't remove the recipient's ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.
| Haladir |
What about acid fogs of the same strength?
For continuious effect spells, like acid fog, that would mean that only one has any effect in the overlapping area.
Your two acid fogspells would only combine to make a bigger bank of caustic vapors in an area defined by the two effects combined.
| Quantum Steve |
bartleby1982 wrote:What about acid fogs of the same strength?For continuious effect spells, like acid fog, that would mean that only one has any effect in the overlapping area.
Your two acid fogspells would only combine to make a bigger bank of caustic vapors in an area defined by the two effects combined.
Would the same apply to Flaming Sphere?
Could you not affect a creature that was already burned by a different Flaming Sphere?
| Peter Stewart |
Haladir wrote:bartleby1982 wrote:What about acid fogs of the same strength?For continuious effect spells, like acid fog, that would mean that only one has any effect in the overlapping area.
Your two acid fogspells would only combine to make a bigger bank of caustic vapors in an area defined by the two effects combined.
Would the same apply to Flaming Sphere?
Could you not affect a creature that was already burned by a different Flaming Sphere?
Acid arrow also jumps to mind.
I'm of a mind that secondary effects like penalties to hit or limited movement don't stack, but damage always does.
| bartleby1982 |
Just compare it to other damaging spells.
If you were to get hit by two Fireballs in one turn, only the stronger of the two spells would do damage, right?
Wait...
Fireball has an instantaneous duration
Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target
| bartleby1982 |
bartleby1982 wrote:What about acid fogs of the same strength?For continuious effect spells, like acid fog, that would mean that only one has any effect in the overlapping area.
Your two acid fogspells would only combine to make a bigger bank of caustic vapors in an area defined by the two effects combined.
The clause is specific to non-instantaneous effects of different strength - it does not govern non-instantaneous effects of the same strength. I was hoping for an official ruling because it appears that;
The designers did not intend this rule to govern damaging spells or;
The designers did intend this rule to govern damaging spells but did cover non-instantaneous effects of the same strength.
RedDogMT
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Hey bartleby1982, I don't think an an official ruling on same strength effects is really necessary. The guidelines for Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths says that the strongest spell would be the one that applies. At the core of that rule is that the affects of one spell is applied and one is not. For two spells of equal strength, just choose one.
You brought up some good points about other non-instantaneous affects. For instance, take Peter's comment on Acid Arrow. If a target is hit with two different instances, what happens? I believe RAW would intend that the second Acid Arrow suppresses the first since they are on the same target. My first reaction to this would be that it doesn't feel right. After all, if I shoot a target with two normal arrows, I do damage for both. Why can't two Acid Arrows work the same...but I think it fits the Combining Magic Effects guidelines better that any other interpretation. I am sure the game is designed this way for purposes of balance.
As for two Flaming Spheres occupying the same space, I would rule that the strongest one would affect the target.
I was also thinking about conditions like Bleed. No matter how many time a Bleed attack hits a target, only the strongest remains active. I can see similar logic being tied to most effects/conditions in the game.