Magic Item Creation: Let's chat


Homebrew and House Rules

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Sovereign Court

CWI:

I can see a case for narrowing CWI a bit, but I'd like to do it by shifting some of its workload into other item creation feats; particularly Forge Ring. You can't really wear all that many rings, and they're very expensive; it's a pretty marginal feat. Meanwhile CWI covers nearly all the slots.

I think it's worth considering to expand Forge Ring into Forge Jewelry (neatly matching Craft: Jewelry!), and put amulets, circlets, crowns, gems and maybe some talismans in there. Bracelets too I suppose, and maybe a few others. Maybe it'll be best to make a list of which magic item slots fall under the Jewelry heading and which ones in the CWI heading.

fighters making their own magic items:

That said, I disagree with the idea that fighters should be making their own magic weapons. For a couple of reasons;

1) They're not magic users. They shouldn't be making magic items. Elves reforging swords in LotR? A lot of them were magic users (Elrond, Galadriel obviously using magic).

2) "Wizards do it all" is absurd; over half of the core+base classes are casters and can take item creation feats. Clerics are probably more suited for Craft Magic Arms & Armor anyway, especially if they're interested in Constructs, since those tend to run heavily on divine spells. If the wizard is making all the magic items, why are the sorcerer, magus, alchemist, druid, cleric, inquisitor, cleric, ranger, witch, oracle and bard not pulling their weight?

3) I disagree with the "every class should be self-sufficient in everything" theory. The game is cooperative in nature. You work together to fill up the gaps in each others' capabilities.

crafting the physical items to be enchanted:

A lot of people overlook the fact that you don't have to make the items you enchant yourself. I understand the desire to houserule this, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea;

1) Wondrous Items are a very broad category; crafting all those different items is annoying. The end result is a wizard using Crafter's Fortune and his high Intelligence and maybe a Fabricate and Masterwork Transformation to bypass this obstruction, so it's actually punishing the other classes.

2) If you find an awesome weapon, say the family heirloom masterwork sword that's got five pages of background, you can't enchant it. So you stash it in the attic and make a new magic masterwork sword so you can enchant it. I don't think this is better for the flavor of the game.

Taking 10:

The misunderstanding is between the conditions where you're allowed to Take 10 and Take 20.

Take 10 represents taking a deep breath, concentrating, and performing a routine task; something you're good enough at that you can do it without risk if there aren't any adverse circumstances. Everyone uses Take 10 to drive to work every day; it's when the weather turns ugly that you start rolling (and risk failure).

Take 20 represents trying it 20 times, until you get it right. You can't Take 20 if whatever you're doing has a cost or danger, because you'd be paying that cost 20 times, or suffering from that danger the first 19 times, until you get it right the 20th time. (Which could get you in trouble with crafting magic items and WBL.) You also can't Take 20 on things that you can't retry (like Knowledge checks, under normal circumstances).

So you can Take 10 on crafting magic items. You can Take 10 on things that have bad consequences if you fail, like tightrope walking; but only if you can concentrate on them (nobody shooting at you while tightrope walking).


Vincent Takeda wrote:
See this is what I dont understand. You say the costs I cite dont exist. Now I dont know how your table works, but the materials for crafting? The spell scrolls? The ink to scribe them in my spellbook and the time to study them and scribe them? I actually had to cross those gold piece amounts off my character sheet.

Those are all already built in to the 50% crafting cost and the token cost of writing a spell in a spellbook; for example, the 250gp to add a fifth-level spell to the spellbook includes the cost of ink. You don't pay extra for them separately.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
ciretose wrote:
3. You should have to be proficient in a weapon or armor to craft that weapon or armor. Will this mean Wizards will have less ability to craft weapons and armor. Yes. Is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion. At least not if you are making it easier for the other classes to craft for themselves if they choose.

I really don't see the need to eliminate what is a classic fantasy paradigm, the wizard enchanting a sword he can not wield for a chosen champion who can.

Instead of complicating Craft Wondrous Items, I find a far more elegant method of control by requiring that the would be enchanter obtain, research, or steal a formula for each kind of item they wish to make. This leaves a nice chokehold gateway in which the DM can keep a measured control over the magic crafters in his game world.

This goes back to the other discussion on adding quests to do things, aka material component "Macguffin"

I like it conceptually, I don't think it can be part of a system. At least I can't figure out how to make it part of one unless you have several books of side quests.

As to classic trope, I think that is far less classic than the great blacksmith trope, which is far less common when generic wizard X with one feat becomes the better than the greatest non-casting blacksmith AND armorer in the world.

Why is the wizard also a master craftsman? Aren't they supposed to be reading books and stuff?

Liberty's Edge

As to downtime. Most adventurer start in their late teens and early 20s.

Unless you are planning on being epic before you hit 30, there will likely be some downtime in there somewhere...


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ciretose wrote:

I think some poeple are missing the point of splitting the feats.

If you make it more feats, players would have to invest more in order to be able to craft what they need. Currently the Wizard is a walking magic market with a one feat investment and at this point an Arcane Class takes "Craft Wondrous items" and cam make nearly everything they need.

Meanwhile other classes need multiple feats (non-arcane classes have armor, and are generally more weapon focuses) with non-casters needing additional skill investments on top of the multiple feats.

Ideally what I would like is for every class to be able to get some equipment for a feat an a reasonable skill investment. A fighter with a feat or two and some skill investment can make their own weapons and armor. A wizard with a feat or two investment can make most of the magic items they use.

If you want a class to become a magic mart, in my opinion that should be an investment. What I would like is for each class to become more able to craft what they used (with a feat and skill investment) in exchange for reducing how cheap it is for caster classes in general to become the magic mart.

They would still be better at making items (no skill investment) but they wouldn't be "The" crafters and they wouldn't be able to craft most of the items with a 1 feat investment.

@Vincent - This goes to a far greater debate and discussion. If you don't trust your GM to run a game where the players have a good time, find a new GM.

If you want to decide exactly what you get and control the outcomes, become a GM.

I think you're missing the point that splitting one feat into 3 puts far too much strain on feat starved classes like, oh I don't know, every caster but the wizard who gets built in bonus feats that can be used towards crafting. You can't base an argument on a class that does this the best for how to level the playing field. You will only cripple this to everyone except the class you're making it harder for.

I think full BAB classes should only get 3/4 BAB and everyone else should be reduced in kind. 3/4 should be reduced to 1/2 and 1/2 to 1/4. This seems fair because all full BAB classes have built in features that will allow them to hit. Too bad for those wizards who won't hit with their rays ever again.


ciretose wrote:
LazarX wrote:
ciretose wrote:
3. You should have to be proficient in a weapon or armor to craft that weapon or armor. Will this mean Wizards will have less ability to craft weapons and armor. Yes. Is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion. At least not if you are making it easier for the other classes to craft for themselves if they choose.

I really don't see the need to eliminate what is a classic fantasy paradigm, the wizard enchanting a sword he can not wield for a chosen champion who can.

Instead of complicating Craft Wondrous Items, I find a far more elegant method of control by requiring that the would be enchanter obtain, research, or steal a formula for each kind of item they wish to make. This leaves a nice chokehold gateway in which the DM can keep a measured control over the magic crafters in his game world.

This goes back to the other discussion on adding quests to do things, aka material component "Macguffin"

I like it conceptually, I don't think it can be part of a system. At least I can't figure out how to make it part of one unless you have several books of side quests.

As to classic trope, I think that is far less classic than the great blacksmith trope, which is far less common when generic wizard X with one feat becomes the better than the greatest non-casting blacksmith AND armorer in the world.

Why is the wizard also a master craftsman? Aren't they supposed to be reading books and stuff?

Maybe because Paizo's vision of a wizard isn't yours. And since this is their game and not yours...


ciretose wrote:

As to downtime. Most adventurer start in their late teens and early 20s.

Unless you are planning on being epic before you hit 30, there will likely be some downtime in there somewhere...

However, there may be instances of several levels going by (even in published AP's) without more than a day or two of actual downtime, while in other cases months or years can go by without levels being gained (even in published AP's).

So while there usually is some restriction and some allowance, the amount is very much unknown to players that don't want to have the adventure spoiled. They won't know if they'll be able to craft only three scrolls in as many levels, or spend three months crafting everything they could remotely need.

While many feats are circumstantial, few are as hard to know about beforehand.


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ciretose wrote:

As to classic trope, I think that is far less classic than the great blacksmith trope, which is far less common when generic wizard X with one feat becomes the better than the greatest non-casting blacksmith AND armorer in the world.

Why is the wizard also a master craftsman? Aren't they supposed to be reading books and stuff?

Pathfinder really doesn't do the whole "great blacksmith" thing.

Part of it is that the quality of an item's craftsmanship is just measured in "Is it masterwork? (y/n)", and masterwork is cheap, pretty much just used as a prerequisite for making it magic, and has its effect overridden by even the most basic of magical enhancements.

Meanwhile, Craft doesn't scale well enough to let even the best craftsmen do things particularly well. I once tried to create the best 20th-level crafter possible (without using Fabricate, Soul Forger Magus, or Amazing Tools of Manufacture), which included cheese like an Int bonus from a succubus, an identical assistant force-feeding Crafter's Fortune extracts, and a choir of nineteenth-level bards inspiring competence around the clock, and it still took them 20 weeks to make mithral platemail - which a wizard could do in six seconds and any sixth-level character with Amazing Tools of Manufacture could do in under a week (because for some reason Pathfinder decided that characters' items should be more special than the characters themselves).

Liberty's Edge

@Khrysaor - Or maybe I'm pointing out that getting most of the magic items for half price (not to mention access to all of said items, regardless of how far from Absalom you are...) is worth a bit more than a single feat.

A bonus feat at that, for wizards.

Will that make your crafter wizard have to invest more in feats? Yes.

Is that a bad thing in my opinion? No.

@Ilja - That is true, but let us remember this is a single feat that allows you the ability to craft most of the items in the game. Even if you can't find a town big enough to have an item of that price or value.

Breaking it out into two or even three feats puts it on more reasonable par with "Forge Ring"


I think it'd be fair to have the casters be masters of enchanting far beyond the crafters, if the crafters where masters of mundane crafting far beyond the wizards.

That isn't the case, however, since there's only two grades of crafted stuff - normal and masterwork. And anyone untrained of average skill (or even below average skill if she has access to good tools) can make masterwork stuff - it's only a DC20, so given time and a few tries, anyone can make it. And that's as good as they get.

Spells like Fabricate just adds insult to injury.

Now, if there was something that could only be done by mundane crafting, the situation would be different. One could consider doing some or all of the following:
- Changing enhancement bonuses to be non-magical, basically upgraded versions of masterwork. DC would increase based on bonus (25+enhancement bonus*enhancement bonus?) and price would remain as it does now. Craft magic arms&armor would only allow special abilities.
- Causing special materials to increase crafting DC.
- Reducing time required exponentially based on skill ranks. Something like increasing DC by +10 also doubles GP progress and can be done multiple times (stacking exponentially).

If there was a huge difference between a master smith with +30 Craft and a caster with minimal investment and +10 Craft, and the master smith could do a lot of things the wizard couldn't, then there wouldn't be much harm in the wizard being the best at enchanting since both have their niches.

I haven't tested using such rules in-game though, but might be worth considering.

Liberty's Edge

I'm not trying to remove the wizard trope, I just would like the amazingly forged trope to enter the game more reasonably.

It isn't like the wizard couldn't still craft the magical "X" for their champion. They would just have to specialize a bit more.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The fallacy of counting Rings and spells as magic item costs is bad, too.

A Ring of Sustenance is good for EVERYONE. No need to be carrying food and water. As chipper at 10 PM as at 10 AM. 2 hours of sleep, nearly impossible to ambush...or interrupted while regaining spells. EVERYONE in your party can use the Ring.

OH, and those benefits give you extra down time. bonus!

As for the spells...come on, you're a freaking wizard. Collecting spells for nominal price in your Blessed Books is what you do. And according to the rules, you can copy spells for much less then buying scrolls, and copying them to a Blessed Book is cheaper then a normal spellbook. Hey, WOndrous Item rides again! Save you money!

Tiny Hut helps crafting during downtime...and also means you are protected against ALL MANNER OF INCLEMENT WEATHER WHILE TRAVELING. Clearly, a horrible thing for a wizard and his party to have. The fact it can be used for Crafting is just cool beans.

Masterwork Transformation is annoying, but all it means mechanically is that you always have access to a masterwork item if needed. Since you aren't saving money, it's a wash with Crafting. Effectively, magic saves you time, which is a fair thing for magic to do.

Fabricate could be seen as much the same, but the problem is Fabricate saves you money, and there's no effective limit on how much money it saves.
HOWEVER...there's nothing in Fabricate that says you can make Masterwork items. Note that ALL SPECIAL MATERIAL ITEMS ARE MASTERWORK. Thus, all mithral/silver/cold iron/adamantine gear are impossible to Fabricate.
Which doesn't make the fact you can make 1500 gp of full plate from 500 gp of components in six seconds pretty damn unfair.

The truly unfair thing that I think grates on people is that there is no other task quite as productive with any downtime anywhere as magic item construction, and there is nothing like spells and spellcasters using specific spells to maximize their downtime productivity. That just rankles. Until that is equalized, there are going to be complaints.

==Aelryinth


Roberta Yang wrote:

Another part of the problem is that the skill-rich wizard just needs one skill (Spellcraft) to do everything, whereas the skill-starved fighter needs a separate Craft skill for each type of item (including separate skills for Bows and "Weapons" for some reason, because apparently bows aren't weapons for some reason because screw you fighters). And they need to pay for Master Craftsman separately for each one.

Are we also going to be fixing mundane crafting at the same time? Because the self-sufficient ranger who whittles her own bows is a really basic fantasy archetype, but it's pretty much impossible in Pathfinder, where a tenth-level ranger with 14 Int, Skill Focus (Craft (Bows)), and full ranks in Craft (Bows) takes two months of continuous all-day work in laboratory conditions (and the ranger doesn't have laboratory conditions and can't afford continuous all-day work) to make a mundane +3 Compound Longbow - and it takes even longer (11 weeks) if you remove the ability to Take 10. And god forbid you want to make mithral armor; the crafting time for that is literally measured in years. (Except for ninth-level wizards who can do it in six seconds.)

This ones funny. I want to make one of those mundane +3 magic compound longbows. Please don't bring another system you think is broken into a discussion of a system you think is broken. First, they are systems independent of each other. Second, either of these being broken is opinion not supported as the popular vote by the player base.

As to your argument in the first paragraph, a fighter being skill starved is absurd. They get just as many skills as a cleric that doesn't have intelligence as a primary, secondary, or even tertiary stat. Fighters also receive more feats than anyone in the game and can easily spare the feats needed for crafting. If you're going to choose to be a martial crafter, you need to use the profession skills as they encompass more. Profession blacksmith lets you make armor, shields, and weapons. Sure you can't make a bow, but then if you wanted to be making bows, you probably dont need to make shields or melee weapons.

Liberty's Edge

A fighter gets lots of feats, because that is for all intents and purposes, the main class skill of the fighter.

A cleric has access to all of the divine spells, so they don't need crafting skills, plural, just spellcraft.


Khrysaor wrote:
This ones funny. I want to make one of those mundane +3 magic compound longbows. Please don't bring another system you think is broken into a discussion of a system you think is broken. First, they are systems independent of each other. Second, either of these being broken is opinion not supported as the popular vote by the player base.

No, it's not a magic bow. A +3 composite bow as in, a bow that allows you to add +3 of your strength modifier to damage with it.

And the systems are related as they show how different crafting follows very different premises, undermining some characters to the benefit of others. Not surprisingly, it's the mundanes that get the shaft even about crafting mundane items and the magic-users are once again empowered.


Ilja wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
This ones funny. I want to make one of those mundane +3 magic compound longbows. Please don't bring another system you think is broken into a discussion of a system you think is broken. First, they are systems independent of each other. Second, either of these being broken is opinion not supported as the popular vote by the player base.

No, it's not a magic bow. A +3 composite bow as in, a bow that allows you to add +3 of your strength modifier to damage with it.

And the systems are related as they show how different crafting follows very different premises, undermining some characters to the benefit of others. Not surprisingly, it's the mundanes that get the shaft even about crafting mundane items and the magic-users are once again empowered.

Oh my bad. I'm confused by the addition of a separate game system that doesn't have any correlation to the one being discussed. They have independent mechanics that separate them. Just because they are both systems that create something, doesn't make them relative. Casting fabricate creates an item. The fabricate spell is broken.


ciretose wrote:

A fighter gets lots of feats, because that is for all intents and purposes, the main class skill of the fighter.

A cleric has access to all of the divine spells, so they don't need crafting skills, plural, just spellcraft.

A wizard gets bonus feats that they can use on crafting, meta magic, or spell mastery, because that is for all intents and purposes, the main class skill of the wizard.

But actually, casting spells is the main class skill of the wizard, much like melee combat is the main skill set of the fighter. The class features both classes get, modify their class utility. A fighter can become well versed at any facet of combat. A wizard can become well versed at any facet of Spellcraft.

Liberty's Edge

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And spellcraft combined with a single bonus feat allows them to craft the majority of items in the game.

Double the feat investment for a fighter gets them the ability to invest in craft skills for a very specific item type. A skill that unlike Spellcraft, has very little application to anything other than crafting that one item.

Oh, and the fighters primary ability score doesn't give them extra skill points.

See the difference?


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ciretose wrote:

And spellcraft combined with a single bonus feat allows them to craft the majority of items in the game.

Double the feat investment for a fighter gets them the ability to invest in craft skills for a very specific item type. A skill that unlike Spellcraft, has very little application to anything other than crafting that one item.

Oh, and the fighters primary ability score doesn't give them extra skill points.

See the difference?

No, I don't. A fighter gets 10 bonus feats where the wizard gets 4. The fighter could take a profession instead of a craft and make a wider variety of items than the craft skill allows. Arguing a narrow option when a broader option exists doesn't make this valid. A wizard uses magic to imbue items with magic. The fighter takes one extra feat to allow him to imbue an item with magic. Why is it not absurd that a single feat mitigates the need to understand magic?


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So don't compare the wizard and fighter then.

Compare the barbarian and druid. Or the warrior and the adept. Or whatever.

The fact remains:
- Casters invest one feat and one skill rank per level to craft any items covered by that feat.
- Non-casters invest two feats and one skill rank per level to craft a very specific subset of items covered by that feat. They also more often have to meet a high DC as most casting requirements are spells.

Casters clearly have much easier access to enchanting than not. Whether that is a problem or not is a matter of opinion, but trying to deny it and saying access is equal or close to equal is just stupid and/or dishonest.

EDIT: Also, casters can craft from level 1. Non-casters can craft from level 7 earliest, unless doing some very specific multiclass combo I don't know about, which might bring it down to 5.

Liberty's Edge

All a fighter gets are bonus feats. That is the class feature.

Wizards get spells. Why is it not absurd that a single feat mitigates the need to learn how to actually need crafting skills?

Exactly.

Either the trope of the "Worlds greatest craftsman made" is < Generic Wizard cast "X" or it isn't.

My solution allows one trope without losing the other.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Um. Having the potential of crafting a whole bunch of things, even at half price, is not the same as having a whole bunch of things. That's like saying that because I can buy pretty much every book on Amazon for much cheaper than the local bookstore, I have pretty much every book. I didn't even have to take the feat Buy Books From Amazon! So overpowered.

I still fail to see what's so terrible about taking a feat for a time delayed +1 to a few stats that requires additional time down the road to keep. Power Attack gives a pretty equivalent bonus (focused into damage, rather than an all around bonus) and scales automagically as the character levels.

I also find it a bit odd to want to further split up all of the crafting feats. Conventional wisdom on these forums and many of the class guides already say that Craft Wondrous Item is the only crafting feat worth considering. Depending on party make up, you might have a case for Craft Magic Arms and Armor. But that Quicken Rod you want? Not worth the feat -- you're better off buying it. Is it not telling that Treantmonk's Wizard guide doesn't particularly recommend spending your Wizard BONUS feats on crafting?

That's not even accounting for the fact that the marginal benefit of crafting feats decreases the more of them you have. Sure, you have the ability to craft a wider variety of items, but you can only craft one thing at a time regardless. You are still primarily limited by money and time, even if you have all of the crafting feats. Power Attack is just as useful if you have Greater Vital Strike as it was at first level.

I'll agree that the mundane crafting system is broken. In fact, that seems to be the prevailing opinion on these forums, even by a number of people that think magical crafting is just fine (I know Ashiel posted in favor of the current magic item creation system in the locked threads, and has also posted a number of threads in Homebrew about fixing the Craft system). Mundane crafting being broken has absolutely no effect on the validity of the magical crafting system. Yes, it should be fixed, but changing magic item creation will do no more to help that than rewriting the rules for 5 foot steps.


ciretose wrote:

All a fighter gets are bonus feats. That is the class feature.

Wizards get spells. Why is it not absurd that a single feat mitigates the need to learn how to actually need crafting skills?

Exactly.

Either the trope of the "Worlds greatest craftsman made" is < Generic Wizard cast "X" or it isn't.

My solution allows one trope without losing the other.

A fighter gets; bravery, armor training, weapon training that are all scalable features with level, armor mastery, weapon mastery, 10 bonus combat feats, full BAB, and good fort saves. These are all the class features a fighter gets. They also have access to other feats that no other class can get without a feature that mimics fighter levels, or a bonus feat to provide them. Critical mastery, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, deadly stroke, penetrating strike, greater penetrating strike.

The argument slipping by here is that the master craftsman feat is allowing mundane crafters to make magic without knowing or having magic. Should there also be a feat for fighters that allow them to cast spells like a wizard too?

Craftsman is a generic term. Why should a class that has no capacity for magic, be capable of being the worlds greatest magic item crafter?

15 ranks in profession blacksmith, master craftsman and craft magic arms and armor feats and a mundane crafter can make +5 enhancement shields/armor/weapons the same as a level 15 wizard. A class with no understanding of magic is capable of understanding as much as a class that is magic incarnate for the purposes of making items.


Ilja wrote:

So don't compare the wizard and fighter then.

Compare the barbarian and druid. Or the warrior and the adept. Or whatever.

The fact remains:
- Casters invest one feat and one skill rank per level to craft any items covered by that feat.
- Non-casters invest two feats and one skill rank per level to craft a very specific subset of items covered by that feat. They also more often have to meet a high DC as most casting requirements are spells.

Casters clearly have much easier access to enchanting than not. Whether that is a problem or not is a matter of opinion, but trying to deny it and saying access is equal or close to equal is just stupid and/or dishonest.

EDIT: Also, casters can craft from level 1. Non-casters can craft from level 7 earliest, unless doing some very specific multiclass combo I don't know about, which might bring it down to 5.

Martial classes are using a feat to be treated as if they have a caster level. Otherwise they can't even qualify to make magic items because they have no ability for magic. Why is this deemed a worthless feat.

The problem I keep reading is this narrowly focused subset thing. Take a craft or profession that provides a broader benefit. And just because you can make everything doesn't mean you will make everything. If you take a profession that covers the things you need where's the argument?

It will require some extra reading on the non casters part to determine the appropriate profession that will help them. Profession tanner will cover belts, body, chest, feet, hands, head, headband, shoulders, wrist. The only ones missing are eyes and neck. Seems like a good profession for someone to make wondrous items. They could even make armors, shields and whips with craft magic arms and armor.

Casters should have an easier time making magic items. They can cast spells and understand magic far better than a martial class. Why would they not have an easier time?

Your edit is a little arbitrary as well. A caster can scribe scrolls at level 1. Scrolls aren't the best thing for a martial class. They're also spell completion items and require the spell to be created. At level 3 there's brew potion, also requires that you have the spell, and craft wondrous items. Level 5 is craft wand, requires the spell, and craft magic arms and armor. Level 7 brings forge ring and non casters get to join the crafting game.

So a martial class is only behind for taking craft wondrous items and craft magic arms and armor at the caster applicable level. Craft magic arms and armor is restricted to +1 enhancement per 3 levels, so when the non caster takes it at level 7, they have to catch up on a +2 enhancement that the caster was able to make at level 6. Craft Wondrous Items is where the casters were able to get a little further ahead.

According to the WBL table, if the caster took CWI at level 3, they could have used 20500gp(the difference between level 3 and 7) to craft if it's been the absolute optimal conditions, amount of time, finding gold or items that were sold for gold. Not having time or finding items that the crafter actually kept reduces this amount. The non caster could also have been saving his coin in preparation of becoming a crafter.


ZZTRaider wrote:


That's not even accounting for the fact that the marginal benefit of crafting feats decreases the more of them you have. Sure, you have the ability to craft a wider variety of items, but you can only craft one thing at a time regardless. You are still primarily limited by money and time, even if you have all of the crafting feats. Power Attack is just as useful if you have Greater Vital Strike as it was at first level.

I've said this before as well. Crafting feats have a diminishing value. As you slowly fill your item slots, you have less need of these feats. When all slots are filled with what you want, you have no use for them. It's not like the benefit is limitless.


Khrysaor wrote:
Martial classes are using a feat to be treated as if they have a caster level. Otherwise they can't even qualify to make magic items because they have no ability for magic. Why is this deemed a worthless feat.

It's not that it's worthless, it's that it's unnecessarily restricting. Take improved initiative, one of the best feats in the game. Consider if it had:

Prerequisite: Proficiency in all martial weapons.

Then consider if the following feat was made:
Initiative Training
Prerequisite: Base Reflex +3
Benefit: For the purpose of taking the improved initiative feat, you are treated as having martial weapon proficiency. Also, you gain a +2 bonus to profession (cobbler)

Would that be a worthless feat? Honestly, not really. +4 to initiative might very well be worth two feats. Would it be really restrictive compared to the current system? YES. Would a lot of people think it's bad design to have a feat which has as main purpose to allow you to take another feat? YES. That's what's called a feat tax.

Khrysaor wrote:
The problem I keep reading is this narrowly focused subset thing. Take a craft or profession that provides a broader benefit. And just because you can make everything doesn't mean you will make everything. If you take a profession that covers the things you need where's the argument?

Well what if you don't? What if there's no profession or craft that covers all your needs?

There is no skill that covers all items, thus, spellcraft IS more allowing.

Khrysaor wrote:
It will require some extra reading on the non casters part to determine the appropriate profession that will help them. Profession tanner will cover belts, body, chest, feet, hands, head, headband, shoulders, wrist. The only ones missing are eyes and neck.

Not really, no. Profession (tanner) won't really cover anything I can think of off the bat, though craft (leather) would cover some. Although, only those that are of leather. You could create boots of springing, but not a cloak of resistance (which is explicitly made out of fabric) nor a howling helm (made of bone). Meanwhile the caster spends one feat less, has access four levels earlier, and can craft all those as well as universal solvents, feather tokens et cetera.

Khrysaor wrote:
Casters should have an easier time making magic items. They can cast spells and understand magic far better than a martial class. Why would they not have an easier time?

That is a valid point of view. However, you seem to be arguing that there isn't a large disparity. Saying "casters have far easier to craft magic items and that's fine" and implying "casters and martials are quite close to each other in terms of accessability".

Quote:
Your edit is a little arbitrary as well.

How so? You seem to agree with my edit. Casters have access to crafting 6 levels earlier (scribe scrolls for everyone, brew potion for alchemists and witches), and the specific feat 4 levels earlier.

That's about 1/2-1/3 of an AP.

Starfinder

ciretose wrote:

All a fighter gets are bonus feats. That is the class feature.

I wouldn't discount other things such as move full speed in Plate armor, weapon training that bumps them above the other martial classes in the to hit department, etc. Fighters in Pathfinder DO have other features besides bonus feats.


ciretose wrote:
1. Craft Wondrous Item needs to be split up. All of the others are pretty much fine considering you are giving up a feat for a relatively narrow field of study, but craft Wondrous Items is ridiculous. At a minimum sub-divide it into clothing and actual items, but I think a good point of discussion is how we can divide up this far to broad feat. If you make this several categories with different feats rather than one feat, a lot of the overpower concerns are addressed.

All magic item creation feats should disappear. You can't balance magic item creation by feats any way ...

Quote:
4. You shouldn't be able to take 10 when crafting. You are getting an item for half-price, failing on one every once in a while isn't an unfair addition.

Just go back to the 3e way, the skill rolls are not an interesting minigame and they do not provide any balance either.

IMO the best way to balance magic item creation is to give everyone crafting points each few levels with separate pools for minor/medium/major items ... so each PC can use crafting to get a couple specific items, for the rest they depend on drops and whatever the DM puts in the shoppees.


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LazarX wrote:
I wouldn't discount other things such as move full speed in Plate armor, weapon training that bumps them above the other martial classes in the to hit department, etc. Fighters in Pathfinder DO have other features besides bonus feats.

Weapon training is pretty much just more bonus feats, except you have to spend them on extra copies of weapon focus / specialization. So they get, uh, full speed in platemail. That sure is... almost a class feature?

Fighters are constrained enough by "You hit good with your chosen weapon" being their only real class feature; they shouldn't have a further restriction of "...provided you can beg a wizard to make your chosen weapon shiny enough."


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Just about every problem with crafting magic items goes away when you make the caster level a non-bypassable prereq.

Alternately, just about every problem with crafting magic items goes away if you don't allow people to "take 10" on the spellcraft roll.

Either of those simple fixes plugs lots of holes.


Ilja wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
Martial classes are using a feat to be treated as if they have a caster level. Otherwise they can't even qualify to make magic items because they have no ability for magic. Why is this deemed a worthless feat.

It's not that it's worthless, it's that it's unnecessarily restricting. Take improved initiative, one of the best feats in the game. Consider if it had:

Prerequisite: Proficiency in all martial weapons.

Then consider if the following feat was made:
Initiative Training
Prerequisite: Base Reflex +3
Benefit: For the purpose of taking the improved initiative feat, you are treated as having martial weapon proficiency. Also, you gain a +2 bonus to profession (cobbler)

Would that be a worthless feat? Honestly, not really. +4 to initiative might very well be worth two feats. Would it be really restrictive compared to the current system? YES. Would a lot of people think it's bad design to have a feat which has as main purpose to allow you to take another feat? YES. That's what's called a feat tax.

Khrysaor wrote:
The problem I keep reading is this narrowly focused subset thing. Take a craft or profession that provides a broader benefit. And just because you can make everything doesn't mean you will make everything. If you take a profession that covers the things you need where's the argument?

Well what if you don't? What if there's no profession or craft that covers all your needs?

There is no skill that covers all items, thus, spellcraft IS more allowing.

Khrysaor wrote:
It will require some extra reading on the non casters part to determine the appropriate profession that will help them. Profession tanner will cover belts, body, chest, feet, hands, head, headband, shoulders, wrist. The only ones missing are eyes and neck.
Not really, no. Profession (tanner) won't really cover anything I can think of off the bat, though craft (leather) would cover some. Although, only those that are of leather. You could create boots of springing, but...

Can't say I really think improved initiative is really that great. Nor do I see how unnecessarily restricting Master Craftsman is. Without the feat you cannot take any magical craft feat and with it you can pick them based on your ranks qualifying as CL. Your example is arbitrary and lends nothing to this. +4 initiative is worth one feat because a trait is worth +2. Requiring two feats puts it on par with a trait. Master Craftsman is not a feat tax. Any caster can take any magic crafting feat. Any non caster requires the feat to be considered as having caster levels to qualify for them.

If you're not taking skills to be useful to what you want to do, why are you doing it. You don't go to school and study advanced sciences to be an English major. You study towards your major. Sure you get electives but the bulk of your course load is towards your goal. Why not be a wizard with 7 intelligence.

PRD wrote:
While a Craft skill represents ability in creating an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge.

So a profession tanner that makes leather wouldn't know how to craft leather? Why not? They have a broader knowledge base than the specific crafter. If someone with profession baker or cook knows how to run a bakery or kitchen and bake or cook, he would have an understanding of craft(cooking). A clerk, barrister, or scribe, would likely know craft(scribe). A trapper would have craft(traps). I don't have any of those professions yet I could go onto YouTube and figure out how to make things with leather, how to cook anything I want, the proper format for scribing a document, or even how to build traps.

I never said there wasn't disparity. I said casters should be able to craft magic better than non casters. Please don't infer false arguments to avoid questions. I asked why you think a caster should not be more capable of crafting magic than a non caster. Adding corner cases that can gain certain feats doesn't help the argument either. It's an extreme example. It also carries no weight for the feats that the non caster can never have. Anything other than Craft Wondrous Items or Craft Magic Arms or Armor. The other feats mentioned up until the non caster can craft magic require you to actually have the spell and not even the caster can avoid this.

I gave you all the appropriate examples as to why it's arbitrary and the Master Craftsman feat specifically says it only pertains to Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor. The only difference is a caster can make wondrous items 4 levels earlier and craft magic arms and armor 2 levels before.


Roberta Yang wrote:
LazarX wrote:
I wouldn't discount other things such as move full speed in Plate armor, weapon training that bumps them above the other martial classes in the to hit department, etc. Fighters in Pathfinder DO have other features besides bonus feats.

Weapon training is pretty much just more bonus feats, except you have to spend them on extra copies of weapon focus / specialization. So they get, uh, full speed in platemail. That sure is... almost a class feature?

Fighters are constrained enough by "You hit good with your chosen weapon" being their only real class feature; they shouldn't have a further restriction of "...provided you can beg a wizard to make your chosen weapon shiny enough."

Full speed in full plate, lower ACP to skills, ability to use acrobatics to avoid AoO in full plate, higher Dex to AC wearing that full plate than any other class, DR while wearing armor, higher crit modifier than other classes, higher to hit than most other classes.

Could go for a Dex built dervish dancer capable of getting +7 Dex to AC in mithral full plate with no magic items.

Why do they need the wizard to make their weapon shinier? Full BAB, high stat mod, weapon focus and greater weapon focus, weapon training. Could be pushing +33 with no magic at all. You'd need a 7 to hit a CR 20 Red Wyrm. Magic items are equally relative to every class.


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Remember that Master Craftsman only applies to one Craft skill, not to everything the related magic item creation feat could possibly cover. A fighter who wants full benefit of Craft Magic Arms & Armor needs to take max three skills (Craft Weapons, Craft Bows, and Craft Armor) and take four feats (Master Craftsman [Weapons], Master Craftsman [Bows], Master Craftsman [Armor], and Craft Magic Arms & Armor). Four feats and three maxed skills on a class with minimal skill points is expensive; this is more than just a couple of levels delay.

Actually, even that isn't allowed, since I've just noticed that Master Craftsman has no language saying you can take it multiple times. Your non-caster can never craft both her own magic swords and her own magic bows, or her own magic axes and her own magic armor, or her own magic shields and her own magic belts. The game does not permit it no matter how much you invest, short of dipping five levels in a caster's class.


Roberta Yang wrote:

Remember that Master Craftsman only applies to one Craft skill, not to everything the related magic item creation feat could possibly cover. A fighter who wants full benefit of Craft Magic Arms & Armor needs to take max three skills (Craft Weapons, Craft Bows, and Craft Armor) and take four feats (Master Craftsman [Weapons], Master Craftsman [Bows], Master Craftsman [Armor], and Craft Magic Arms & Armor). Four feats and three maxed skills on a class with minimal skill points is expensive; this is more than just a couple of levels delay.

Actually, even that isn't allowed, since I've just noticed that Master Craftsman has no language saying you can take it multiple times. Your non-caster can never craft both her own magic swords and her own magic bows, or her own magic axes and her own magic armor, or her own magic shields and her own magic belts. The game does not permit it no matter how much you invest, short of dipping five levels in a caster's class.

The feat specifies craft or profession skill. A blacksmith may not know how to forge brilliant weapons and armor but he may understand the nature of metals better than someone who can only forge weapons. Using his knowledge of metals, he imbues the item necessary. Same thing with the profession tanner. You understand leathers and could imbue items as such.

Nowhere does it say that the person is forging the base armor or weapon. You could buy the masterwork item as every other magical crafter does and then bring out the enhancement properties of the material itself.

Edit: if this feat seems so restrictive, why not house rule that the feat applies to any craft or profession skill that you put 5 ranks into instead of just one skill.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
ciretose wrote:

All a fighter gets are bonus feats. That is the class feature.

I wouldn't discount other things such as move full speed in Plate armor, weapon training that bumps them above the other martial classes in the to hit department, etc. Fighters in Pathfinder DO have other features besides bonus feats.

It's the context of the comment that mattered.

Feats are to Fighters as Spells are to wizards.

That the wizard gains crafting ability isn't balanced by how many extra feats the fighter gets.

Liberty's Edge

Khrysaor wrote:


Edit: if this feat seems so restrictive, why not house rule that the feat applies to any craft or profession skill that you put 5 ranks into instead of just one skill.

Isn't this whole discussion about houseruling?


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[qoute=Roberta Yang]"...provided you can beg a wizard to make your chosen weapon shiny enough."

Its true. Making these non casters dependent on spellcrafters to make their magic items sure does make them weak and impotent. Reduced to begging even. Horribly imbalanced. I know as a crafting wizard I've never needed a DPS or a Meatshield in any of my adventures. Yep. Me and my cleric buddy. Taking on the world.

I guess the best fix is to let everyone craft magic items. Then we can give the healing feats to the barbarian and the fighter as well and before you know it we're playing 4e!


I think master craftsman by itself is very easy to fix. I think it could be like this:
Master Craftsman
Prerequisites: Any craft or profession 5 ranks
Benefit: Pick one craft or profession skill that you have at least 5 ranks in. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. This feat applies to items that can be crafted with the chosen craft skill or items commonly used in the chosen profession (up to DM adjudication). You may craft such magic items as if you had the appropriate feat and a caster level equal to your ranks in that skill. You cannot use this feat to create any spell trigger or spell activation items. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on all checks
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Every time it applies to a new skill.


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ciretose wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:


Edit: if this feat seems so restrictive, why not house rule that the feat applies to any craft or profession skill that you put 5 ranks into instead of just one skill.
Isn't this whole discussion about houseruling?

No one has said it isn't. We've been discussing variant rules for two pages now. The point of a forum is to promote discussion. You made a suggestion, others, myself included, made suggestions to your suggestion for balance reasons.

No one has said anything is against the rules so it can't be done.

I've been trying to find the justification used for the suggested changes and stating how it would lead to more imbalance.

The major arguments in this thread are, craft wondrous items provides too much so it should be split into 3 feats and now master craftsman is a feat tax that provides too narrow a benefit.

Splitting one feat into 3 would make the value of all wondrous items to shift. An item requiring two feats will be worth more than it is priced now at one feat. Same as any item you deem is in the three feat range. You based this off of the wizard having it too easy and martial classes needing too much investment. Unfortunately splitting this into more feats makes this even more of an investment to those martial classes that you said don't have the resources to spare. The wizard though, he still has enough to spare and retains his place at the top.

Master craftsman being too narrow and a feat tax is absurd. A non caster has no caster level to qualify for magic crafting feats or the knowledge of magic to be able to apply magic to items. This feat gives non casters caster levels for qualifying for craft feats and a +2 bonus to the skill of choice. It basically teaches you how to manipulate material to make magic without having magic. How narrow the gains are is based on the skill you want to use. Professions will encompass more than a craft skill but don't allow you to craft the specific mundane item as its not included in the mechanics. It doesn't prevent you from imbuing a masterwork item with magic.

Ex. against absurd feat taxes.
A martial class needs to take power attack for extra damage even if they have a 30 Str. Shouldn't anyone just know that they could forego accuracy to full out smash something? Seems like a tax. What about cleave? Why wouldn't I know if I swung hard enough I could follow through and hit the next guy? And then great cleave? I have a 30 str, and swing really hard already, why do I need power attack.

Balance wise for Master Craftsman, you could use my example on the first page where the feat applies to all crafts pertaining to the skill without really breaking anything. Having it apply to any craft or profession you have the required ranks in, isn't game breaking either. Removing the feat itself and making an addendum to crafting feats that allow you to apply ranks as CL to obtain the feats at the same pace as casters doesn't break anything beyond making items even more common place. None of these affect your opinion that it's too narrow though.


I don't think anyone said craft wondrous items should be split into a three feat chain, just three different feats. Something like, craft jewelry, craft clothing, craft misc or similar.

Is there a balance reason master craftsman needs to be the way it is or is it just that you like it the way it is? You say it's for balance reasons but I've seen no argument as to how anyone would become that much more powerful if it simply allowed you to craft magic items instead of just allowing you to take item creation feats.

And the difference between feat taxes such as master craftsman and feat taxes such as power attacks is that they work in very different ways. Basically, there's two kind of feats that get labeled feat taxes, and I think we've talked past each other a bit on this.

1. A feat that enables an option that is so good everyone (or everyone of a specific, common tactic) wants to take it from an optimization standpoint. Power attack falls into this, as does weapon finesse, and leadership. Some people see the large amount of TWF or Vital Strike feats as a bit feat-taxy.

These are the kind of feat taxes that you mention above and not what I'm talking about. Basically, I think most of these feats aren't really feat taxes at all.

- A feat that does nothing or very little by itself and is mostly a prerequisite. Endurance is a feat often mentioned, master craftsman is another, some people consider combat expertise a feat tax in most cases.

That's the kind of feat tax I'm talking about. A feat that _by itself_ gives a benefit that is so small you'd never spend a feat on it other than for flavor, or that is extremely build specific but that enables decent, balanced feats that a lot of other characters would want. And that's what I meant with Initiative Training above - while the feat allows you to take another feat that is very good, it by itself doesn't do anything, making it a tax.

It's very obvious in a case such as Master Craftsman or my Initiative Training above, because a lot of other characters can get the end feats of the chain without taking the prerequisite.

I think this kind of feat taxes are bad design. Pure bad design. If something is too good for a single feat - split it between two feats, each doing something. If something isn't too good for a single feat - allow it as a single feat.


What I was saying is switch up the requirements and such and get rid of Master Craftsman and the Spellcraft to craft.

Basically a Level 3 Rogue, Fighter, or Expert can get Craft Magic Arms & Armour and Craft whatever Weapon, Bow, or Armour they need as long as they have the Skill.

But I also use variant skill set up.

I increase the Number of Base Skill Ranks every class but INT based Casters get (Exception is the Magus which is also increased). I combine Jumping, Climbing, & Swiming into Athletics(STR) and combine TWF and Vital Strike into scaling Feats.


From a Gamist point of view the I believe the current crafting system is in need of work. From a Simulationist point of view it works ok, and from a Narrative perspective the rules are fairly detached from story telling.

The options available for non casters when it comes to crafting are very poor. Spells and spell casting ability are required to produce valuable items and any item in a timely fashion. The problem is very similar to the why play a rogue when x class does everything the rogue does but better arguments.

If you play in a game that spans a long period of time in the game world you are essentially penalized for being unable to craft. The opposite is true as well if you have no down time and the campaign takes place over a month crafting feats can be a total waste.

I personally believe the rules would work better as a whole if players could only create consumable items and permanent item creation was handled by the GM as a quest.


I agree that some work could be done on the crafting system.

I feel that Craft Wondrous Item is definitively the most rewarding crafting feat to take.

I would address this by collapsing together other feats however not dividing Craft Wondrous Item.

As for Master Craftsman, in my opinion it would be a good idea to leave it narrow in scope but reduce it to only one feat not two and make it available at the level that a caster could become a crafter of that item type.

Anyway here are my ideas for crafting house rules. Please any comments or feedback would be appreciated.

Crafting Ideas


Master Craftsman only allows you access to the 2 feats. It doesn't give you the feats for free.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Master Craftsman only allows you access to the 2 feats. It doesn't give you the feats for free.

What I meant was something like this.

Current MasterCraftsman:

Master Craftsman

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

New MasterCraftsman:

Master Craftsman V2.0

Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: Special See text

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 1 rank. Choose one magic item crafting feat. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. You are treated as having that magic item crafting feat. You must have ranks equal in your chosen skill equal to the caster level requirement of the selected magic item crafting feat to select said feat. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of crafting magic items associated with your chosen skill and magic item crafting feat.

You can create magic items using this feat, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for magic item crafting feats, and are required to obtain those feats before crafting any magic items.


The splitting feat into a feat tree was from the last thread, sorry. This one did specify something more akin to separate individual feats. Instead of splitting items into more feats, you could split the item slots into the other existing feats to balance them all to each other.

Craft magic arms and armor already gets 3 slots, Forge ring gets 2 slots, Craft wondrous items gets the other 11. Why not just balance it out so each of them encompasses roughly 5 slots each, instead of breaking items into new categories? Balances the existing feats to each other without creating more feat bloat. If not you're looking at 4 new feats 3 of which have 3 slots and 1 with 2.

I didn't say there was a balance reason to master craftsman that makes me want to stick to the ruling. I've given several responses stating how it could be different and not alter balance with some drastic negative. I'm just not a fan of the feat tax idea. I find these things exist for balance even if the feat required doesn't grant you some huge benefit. A +2 to a skill and treating ranks like CL I'd consider close to a skill focus. Sure skill focus scales to +6 with 10 ranks, but now that's a total of 10 ranks of investment.

Lv. 10 Rogue takes master craftsman and craft magic arms and armor.
Profession Blacksmith to understand the wonders of metal to imbue into weapons and armor. Enchants his scimitar and mithral chain shirt.

10 ranks + 3 class + 2 feat + 2 tools + 1 stat (+1 trait) = +18(19)

Lv. 10 Cleric takes skill focus Spellcraft and craft magic arms and armor.

10 ranks + 3 class +6 feat +1 stat (+1 trait) = +20(21)

No skill focus and the cleric is down to +14(15)

A caster having a higher bonus to craft seems normal from my own immersion perspective, but then maybe the cleric can't afford the feats for skill focus and now the non caster is more capable of crafting magic arms and armor.

If optimization is all this is about, this isn't an argument for me. I do my best to play for flavor and have been known to make many bad optimization picks like not having power attack on a melee character.

Purely optimized and I'm going human for a bonus feat and the heart of the fields alternate racial trait to increase my profession check by 1/2 my level, gearing traits toward cheaper crafting and bonus to profession skill, sticking with a class like rogue for all the extra skill points to make it easy, although any class will work, profession metalsmith covers anything made of metal or having metal parts.

Lv. 10 rogue

10 ranks + 3 class + 2 feat + 2 tools + 5 racial + 1 stat + 1 trait = +24 profession metalsmith, +34 taking 10.

At level 10 you'd be making pretty much anything a caster is capable of for the level.


I think I am being turned to the idea that magic item creation in and of itself needs a fix (as well as to Adamantine Dragons position that magic items themselves are the cause of the problem)

Some things I would implement to the crafting rules and magic items themselves:

1) Magic items should be removed from the inherent progression of the game completely. Especially in terms of the Big 6 magic items. The bonuses gained from these items should instead be made apart of the inherent progression of the game. Basically, Characters should simply get these bonuses as apart of leveling up. (How this interacts with DR would be another interesting notion. It could mean that items would need special properties again in order to get through said DR, or one could implement the notion that fighters and other martial classes gain abilities that allow their attacks to bypass DR as a class feature.)

2) Remove the necessity of spells and feats in crafting magic items, and instead make ones ability to craft magic items dependent on the craft skill themselves with set DCs based on the item being created.

3) Organize and consolidate the craft skills themselves (Bows and weapons should not be separate categories).

4) Reorganize the Wealth by Level chart for PCs to account for players no longer needing the big 6 magic items.

The basic idea behind all of this is that a character wouldn't need anything more than a +1 Sword and instead of enchanting or replacing it so as to keep up with the numbers in the game the have the ability to apply enchantments themselves, regardless of class, in response to what is thrown at them in the game. SO, say a fighter gets a +1 sword and early in the campaign they are facing a lot of undead so they make a crafting check and put a holy enchantment on the sword. Then later the campaign turns and the fighter has to face down some dragons instead so they put Bane on the sword and apply it specifically against dragons. Now we have a +1 holy dragonbane longsword that instead of advancing based solely on the numbers of the game has instead grown based on the characters personal story, which in my mind at least is far more entertaining thing to encourage.


Easiest solution to the crafting imbalance of non casters...

Is level dip. 3-5 levels in a caster class and there's your craft wondrous item! Sure you didnt invest skillpoints in spellcraft so you suck at it but news flash. You're supposed to suck at it. Who do you think you are? Janeway? No man is an island. The journey to perfection cannot be an internal journey alone! You stick with being the slashy or the shooty and let the spellcrafters do the spellcrafting as the gods intended. You want to make magic items it'd help if you had any experience or background in oh, I don't know. Say... Magic?

If it is clearly so imbalanced as a single feat then go get it! You want the advantage but you dont want to have to give up anything for it.


"If noncasters wanted to be able to do interesting things why don't they play casters instead?"


Paranoia RPG: "If commies hate being commies then why would they rather die than stop being commies"

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