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4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Pretty much sums it up.
Is there a mechanical reason behind why a Kensai can't choose a Simple Weapon as his Chosen Weapon (other than RaW, I'm not stupid).
I'm hopefully fishing for Developer input into this as while I know all of you guys can offer some insightful ideas, I really want to get to the core idea behind why Simple Weapons were omitted.
Cheers
Humm you know never thought about it. I suppose its because Kensai is aimed mostly at swords (though it is not always the case.) and even when not a sword its a advanced weapon. Simple weapons are well... peasant weapons.
Though this is flavor. As for mechanical? Nope can't think of any.
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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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The way I understand it, the "chosen weapon" which the kensai may apply other class features to may be any weapon he's proficient with. The weapon proficiency line is badly written.
You are free to choose simple weapons. You choose a chosen weapon as part of Uncanny Defense. You can choose any weapon even one your aren't proficient in. You'd have to go out of your way to make sure you aren't proficient though and why you'd do that would be a mystery.
To give an example. You pick one martial weapon in proficiencies but choose your chosen weapon to be a martial that is not a proficiency you chose in proficiencies. Doing that would be kind of silly.
This is not clear. Commonly the kensai is read in a way that makes him chose a weapon for proficiency and that weapon is automatically the chosen weapon for his other abilities.
I think it's implied that the "chosen weapon" in Canny Defense is the one you chose as a proficiency, but it's not explicitly stated:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency wrote: A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice. Canny Defense wrote: At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type. Of course, the other abilities also reference his "chosen weapon" without giving you the opportunity to choose another one.
The interaction here is unclear. The intent seems to be that you are proficient with one martial/exotic melee weapon, which should be one-handed to allow use with Spell Combat, though that isn't stated explicitly.
If your "Canny Defense" weapon isn't the one you chose as a proficiency, can it be a ranged weapon? "may be of any type"
Can you pick a different one for Weapon Focus? The language of "his chosen weapon" is the same?
I'd certainly allow any simple melee weapon to be used. Might not give you the martial proficiency though.
I'd rewrite the Weapon Proficiency to :
A kensai is proficient in simple weapons. A kensai is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored.
And then add:
Chosen Weapon
A kensai chooses one melee weapon. If this weapon is martial or exotic, he gains proficiency with it.
Possibly restricting that to "light or one-handed melee weapon" to go with Spell Combat.
Umbranus wrote: This is not clear. Commonly the kensai is read in a way that makes him chose a weapon for proficiency and that weapon is automatically the chosen weapon for his other abilities. Like I said, it's poorly worded, but the choices are independent from one another.
Dust Raven wrote: Umbranus wrote: This is not clear. Commonly the kensai is read in a way that makes him chose a weapon for proficiency and that weapon is automatically the chosen weapon for his other abilities. Like I said, it's poorly worded, but the choices are independent from one another. I don't see how. "Canny Defense" doesn't say "Choose a weapon" it says "his chosen weapon". Just like all the other kensai abilities.
The initial flavor text which describes the archetype indicates you have a favored weapon. It doesn't EVER say "pick a chosen weapon" anywhere, only that you may select a martial or exotic weapon to be proficient with (and never does it say this is your "chosen weapon").
Technically, if you want to go by the literal wording, you don't have a chosen weapon, and all class abilities which require one don't actually do anything.
Dust Raven wrote: The initial flavor text which describes the archetype indicates you have a favored weapon. It doesn't EVER say "pick a chosen weapon" anywhere, only that you may select a martial or exotic weapon to be proficient with (and never does it say this is your "chosen weapon").
Technically, if you want to go by the literal wording, you don't have a chosen weapon, and all class abilities which require one don't actually do anything.
How about choosing a ranged weapon?
Please stop being RAW-nazis when the RAI is blatantly obvious. It accomplishes nothing. The ability may not state that his canny defense weapon is the same as his kensai chosen weapon, but does anyone really need to help you figure out what 2+2 equals? Looking for mechanics loopholes isn't a cute idea when the intention behind the rule is already this easy to see. It's the kind of cheese that breeds the wrong kind of player mentality at tables. (Though I don't disagree that the rule books in general need to be cleaned up and use more consistent language to keep this kind of general cheesiness at bay).
tl;dr: You can fight for the RAW all day long when the RAI isn't clear. But don't look to abuse the RAW when the RAI is already obvious. It doesn't benefit the game.
As for the original question: no real reason to disallow a simple weapon. It's fair to assume any simple weapon he could pick would be an inferior choice to any corresponding martial or exotic weapon (save for maybe the ever-useless spiked chain); so it's not going to break anything. There's no mechanical reason why you couldn't have a dagger Kensai, for example, if that's the flavor you're shooting for.
No need to be rude and insulting, Kazejin.
In any case, the only blatantly obvious thing here is the RAW and RAI are vague at best.
If I insulted you, I apologize. I use a lot of facetious statements, and I do have a habit of coming across more aggressive that I actually meant to.
In any case, though, are you honestly telling me that you actually believe that the intent allows his "selected" weapon and his "Canny defense" weapon to be two different weapons? It's one thing to say the RAW allows it, but it's something entirely different to state that you actually believe that was intentional. If you don't believe that, you can't then call the RAI unclear. If you do believe it, then fine.
I don't see anything vague about the intent. Why reference selected weapons at all, if it wasn't meant to be consistent? The RAW lacks the consistency, yes, but the RAW often lacks a great deal in this department anyway.
If you want your weapon to be a simple weapon, you're free to choose so. It does mean that you don't have a martial or exotic weapon proficiency at all.
If you want your chose weapon to be hammer or light mace, you're free to do so. You can choose a quarterstaff, but unless you take the Quarterstaff Mastery feat, you're going to have issues with spell combat, and you'd probably be better off taking the Staff Magus archetype instead. (Because both archetypes overlap, you can't take both.)
There is absolutely no reason to pick a simple weapon as a magus. Why would you want one? Chances are, there's a martial or exotic version of the simple weapon you want anyway.
Kazejin wrote: In any case, though, are you honestly telling me that you actually believe that the intent allows his "selected" weapon and his "Canny defense" weapon to be two different weapons? It's one thing to say the RAW allows it, but it's something entirely different to state that you actually believe that was intentional. If you don't believe that, you can't then call the RAI unclear. If you do believe it, then fine. No. That's not what I said.
I said the martial or exotic weapon you select to be proficient with is a different choice than the weapon you choose as you chosen weapon. Your chosen weapon may be selected from... well any weapon, proficient or not.
Quote: I don't see anything vague about the intent. Why reference selected weapons at all, if it wasn't meant to be consistent? The RAW lacks the consistency, yes, but the RAW often lacks a great deal in this department anyway. The fact is, there is no class feature or text which indicates how you select a chosen weapon or from what list it is to be selected from. The only thing you may select is a weapon to be proficient with, and that's not the same thing as selecting a "chosen weapon." I feel this is just an oversight of the author and editor.
I can understand how someone may think the one martial or exotic weapon they chose to be proficient with MUST be their chosen weapon because it makes to for such a weapon to be so, but that's hardly a restriction.
Dust Raven wrote: I said the martial or exotic weapon you select to be proficient with is a different choice than the weapon you choose as you chosen weapon. Your chosen weapon may be selected from... well any weapon, proficient or not. By RAW, yes. However...
Dust Raven wrote: The fact is, there is no class feature or text which indicates how you select a chosen weapon or from what list it is to be selected from. The only thing you may select is a weapon to be proficient with, and that's not the same thing as selecting a "chosen weapon." I feel this is just an oversight of the author and editor. Emphasis mine. This is the heart of my statement. I'm pretty sure the average person who reads the abilities will reach the conclusion that it was most likely intended for the kensai's selected proficiency to also be his "chosen weapon." In other words, applying common logic to the issue leads to the assumption that the writers/editors simply made an oversight (as you stated); which then leads to the assumption that the actual intent of the rule was that both selections were meant to be the same. Since you stated that you feel the lack of RAW was an oversight, I'm guessing you don't disagree with my thought-process here. This is why I say the RAI is quite clear. The RAW isn't, but the RAI is.
The rest of my statements are essentially to emphasize that if the RAI is relatively easy to spot (as seems to be the case here), it's pointless to apply the loophole given by the RAW.
Dust Raven wrote: I can understand how someone may think the one martial or exotic weapon they chose to be proficient with MUST be their chosen weapon because it makes to for such a weapon to be so, but that's hardly a restriction. Again, by RAW you are correct. I really do wish the rules would be written in more consistent manner. Mistakes happen, though. Personally, I feel that allowing RAW without considering RAI is generally a bad idea, in any case.
Well, you might be right, but I stand by my assessment the RAI is just as unclear as the RAW. Logic can only take you so far before you have to assume something, and you've assumed something different that I have.
I'm also not the only one to make this assumption: In HeroLab, you make these selections separately, and all simple weapons appear on the list for "chosen weapon." HeroLab is not a rule source of any kind and should never be interpreted as such, but it's clear the idea your chosen weapon need not match your martial/exotic proficiency is not that strange.
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