Conjurer Wizard Build what to pick?


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Silver Crusade

Atarlost wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Also, I don't really see Imp Familiar as giving the GM carte blanch authority to screw with you. You are magically bonded to it after all.
You have a nice GM who's tolerant of non-evil characters making deals with devils. Not everyone does. It's a faustian bargain and an English speaking GM is probably most familiar with Marlowe's version.

It's not the same thing as a planar binding though. It's a familiar.

My familiar is effectively my b****.


Elamdri wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Also, I don't really see Imp Familiar as giving the GM carte blanch authority to screw with you. You are magically bonded to it after all.
You have a nice GM who's tolerant of non-evil characters making deals with devils. Not everyone does. It's a faustian bargain and an English speaking GM is probably most familiar with Marlowe's version.

It's not the same thing as a planar binding though. It's a familiar.

My familiar is effectively my b****.

Not if it has its own non-animal int score. That's why improved familiars can require you to be in an adjacent alignment and will leave you if you drift more than one step away from them.

You've secured the service of an imp somehow. The only ways to do that are to keep it under a spell forever (impossible since such spells have saves and natural 20s happen) or by making a deal with it or its boss.

Sczarni

You need to read more about the tropes involved with making deals with imps, binding imps, etc...

God knows how many manga and animes and fiction have revolved around a evil creature being bound or somehow forced to serve a wizard that wasn't evil and wouldn't let them act out their evil desires....


lantzkev wrote:

You need to read more about the tropes involved with making deals with imps, binding imps, etc...

God knows how many manga and animes and fiction have revolved around a evil creature being bound or somehow forced to serve a wizard that wasn't evil and wouldn't let them act out their evil desires....

If it were meant to work like that there wouldn't be alignment restrictions on improved familiars.

The contrary trope is so old and well established it's recognized by Merriam-Webster, not just tvtropes, and it's been used as an adjective since 1876.

Sczarni

That's actually a different troupe than what I'm talking about.

AT any rate, yeah there's an alignment restriction, but having a devil in your service does not make you evil nor will it. What you do with it that familiar will determine if you become evil or good etc.

Silver Crusade

Atarlost wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Also, I don't really see Imp Familiar as giving the GM carte blanch authority to screw with you. You are magically bonded to it after all.
You have a nice GM who's tolerant of non-evil characters making deals with devils. Not everyone does. It's a faustian bargain and an English speaking GM is probably most familiar with Marlowe's version.

It's not the same thing as a planar binding though. It's a familiar.

My familiar is effectively my b****.

Not if it has its own non-animal int score. That's why improved familiars can require you to be in an adjacent alignment and will leave you if you drift more than one step away from them.

You've secured the service of an imp somehow. The only ways to do that are to keep it under a spell forever (impossible since such spells have saves and natural 20s happen) or by making a deal with it or its boss.

Your familiar doesn't get to bargain with you for it's services. It serves you unless your alignment shifts. Now an imp may push you towards evil acts, but in that regard he serves as a sort of literal Shoulder Devil.

The only way a GM has authority under the rules to screw with you is if he says that your actions have causes your alignment to shift and your familiar therefore leaves your services.

Personally, I've never had that happen mostly because I play neutral characters straight. I do whatever is in my best interest all the time, be it good or bad, lawful or unlawful. Regardless however, there's nowhere in the rules where it says that your familiar gets to **** with you unless you capitulate to it or bargain for it's services. It's your familiar and you OWN it. It can have thoughts, goals and motives of it's own, but it's subtle in those means. Besides, I'd like to see an imp try to bargain with a 7th level wizard:

Imp: I'm not doing that unless you sacrifice a baby to me!
*Wizard hits the imp with an enervation*
Wizard: Losers says what?

Sczarni

Said wizard gets a new imp every week and teaches it what happened to the prior imps. =D

Silver Crusade

lantzkev wrote:
Said wizard gets a new imp every week and teaches it what happened to the prior imps. =D

"You see that? That's the bag of holding for the familiars that didn't behave. You don't want to be in that bag..."

Silver Crusade

Honestly, any wizard that I make probably isn't going to have a difficult time keeping an evil familiar around anyway. My last wizard waterboarded someone in an interrogation...


Elamdri wrote:
Honestly, any wizard that I make probably isn't going to have a difficult time keeping an evil familiar around anyway. My last wizard waterboarded someone in an interrogation...

This is not a good thing. You may keep your familiar, but not your character. Many GMs ban evil PCs. Even if you don't get turned into a villain NPC you will no longer be able to apply the celestial template to your summons and summon good aligned outsiders, which is kind of a big deal if you're a conjurer fighting against mostly evil enemies.

Keeping company with a devil, even a small one, is ongoing evil that makes it easier for the GM to justify shifting you to an evil alignment. If you have any trouble at all with acting evil you should go for a shoulder angel of some sort instead. Good is a less dangerous alignment to drift into because it's usually easier to be selfish and drop back into neutral without losing an angel than to repent and rise back from evil without losing your imp. After all if you continue to keep company with a devil you obviously aren't repentant.


lantzkev wrote:
That and we have a bard =D I can just buy a scroll or potion for specific issues or hope a cleric has pop'd by the table that day =D

Not as much of an issue in PFS play - but I wouldn't recommend those choices for a campaign...


Elamdri wrote:
Honestly, any wizard that I make probably isn't going to have a difficult time keeping an evil familiar around anyway. My last wizard waterboarded someone in an interrogation...

Evil characters having evil familiars is perfectly fine within the rules.

Sczarni

I won't disagree with the value of such things, to be honest I kind of wish I had made evocation one of the opposed schools as it stands, it hasn't been too bad.

Silver Crusade

Atarlost wrote:
Elamdri wrote:
Honestly, any wizard that I make probably isn't going to have a difficult time keeping an evil familiar around anyway. My last wizard waterboarded someone in an interrogation...

This is not a good thing. You may keep your familiar, but not your character. Many GMs ban evil PCs. Even if you don't get turned into a villain NPC you will no longer be able to apply the celestial template to your summons and summon good aligned outsiders, which is kind of a big deal if you're a conjurer fighting against mostly evil enemies.

Keeping company with a devil, even a small one, is ongoing evil that makes it easier for the GM to justify shifting you to an evil alignment. If you have any trouble at all with acting evil you should go for a shoulder angel of some sort instead. Good is a less dangerous alignment to drift into because it's usually easier to be selfish and drop back into neutral without losing an angel than to repent and rise back from evil without losing your imp. After all if you continue to keep company with a devil you obviously aren't repentant.

I view the familiar as more of a slave than a true companion.


Elamdri wrote:
I view the familiar as more of a slave than a true companion.

Hmm I always looked at my familiar as my partner in a "Buddy Cop Movie". Just me and my little buddy getting into and out of trouble together. Maybe I better pick a Mephit for my improved familiar.

Silver Crusade

Lets be clear, that's MY view (certainly when I have imps). The rules themselves are rather vague on the relationship.

Sczarni

the relationship is what you make of it


Whale_Cancer wrote:
Dilvias wrote:
For a Wizard, strength only matters for carrying capacity

Touch attacks?

Getting eaten by shadows?

Not many wizards focus on melee touch attacks (ranged touch attacks use dex). If you are going for a melee focus build, then yes, you may want to avoid dumping strength. Or... take weapon finesse. Or reach spell. Either works. Besides, you're going after touch AC. -1 to hit vs touch doesn't matter that much.

Yes, shadows bite. So does anything that uses ability drains, although shadows are particularly nasty for their CR. But is a strength of 10 vs 8 so much better when you face a pack of shadows? Either way, 2 or 3 hits and you're most likely going down anyway. Similarly, yes, strength does figure into CMD, but again, if someone is going to be grappling you, with your low BAB they're going to auto-succeed if they're at all focused on grappling.

And yes, -1 on climb or swim checks will hurt on the occasions it comes up. Still, it's not like you're wearing armor, so no armor check penalty at least.

But compare those few cases where the -1 of a strength of 8 matters vs an int of 20. Int 20 for a wizard is going to be more useful day in/day out.

All that said, there really isn't anything wrong with an Int of 18 vs 20 for many wizards. Int 18 often is "good enough". Heck, even Int 16 is fine for many concepts, although I'd avoid going lower than that. And if you want to hit things with your staff, then sure, go ahead and take a strength of 14 or even 16. It's your character. Do what you want.


Elamdri wrote:

Lets be clear, that's MY view (certainly when I have imps). The rules themselves are rather vague on the relationship.

Unless you're the OP's GM your view is less relevant than his GM's view or, since his GM hasn't posted here, the worst case scenario. In the worst case scenario, which the alignment restrictions on familiars indicates is more accurate than your familiars as slaves view, having an imp familiar makes it more difficult to maintain an advantageous alignment. They are not nearly enough better than, say, mephits to justify that on a conjurer. No improved familiar has benefits more important than keeping your summoning options open by staying in a neutral alignment as a conjurer.

Silver Crusade

Which is why I stated "Ask the GM for his thoughts before doing it"

Regardless, we're both talking about the obvious "cheese" done by being a neutral conjurer. I don't think having a familiar that isn't neutral is really any more of a big deal than someone who only constantly summons celestial rather than infernal summons.

Either your GM is going to make a stink about your alignment, or he isn't. My experience is that most GM's don't really give a damn (unless you're a paladin, because for some reason, F*** paladins. Chaotic Monks and Lawful Barbarians are totally fine, but god help you if you're a paladin who makes the most minor infraction).


yeti1069 wrote:

Your group doesn't sound like it likes role-playing with obnoxious/socially awkward characters.

Have you ever watched House? Think of a 20 Int/7 Cha wizard as House, and all those 16 Int/12 Cha wizards as his assistants--the patients may like the assistants better, their boss may prefer dealing with them, but at the end of the show, it's House who is making the logical connections that save peoples' lives, not the other ones.

Remember that those "assistants" are the guys sitting next to you at the table, and the "boss" and "patients" are the GM. Making a character that actively antagonizes them can be a serious jerk move. Some people can pull off a low charisma character and make them a lot of fun to play with. Most people fail miserably.

On the other hand, if your group doesn't care how you RP your character relative to stats, don't worry about it. If the only difference between a 7 and a 12 charisma is -3 added to your d20 roll, not affecting how you actually play your character, it might well be worth it.

A lot of stat questions depend on what kind of game you're playing. If the warmup fights are APL+3 and the boss shows up around the fourth encounter in the day, yeah you really need to maximize your casting stat. If you're running an AP with minor modification, or if the combats are just there to add some spice to an RPing session, the trade off to get a 20 int at level 1 makes you miss out on a lot of other stuff.

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