Hi,
I have a general question and a specific example to illustrate the question. When adding a template to a creature that changes it's HD, do you adjust the CR and then change it's HD, or do you change the HD and then adjust the CR based on the new HD? CR is dependent on HD in this case.
In particular I am trying to make a gnome warrior skelton champion (yarrg). Part of the reason I am confused is because I don't like to just trust hero lab blindly. Its a great program but fairly buggy about things like this and it disagrees with the Bestiary. My terrible DM math disgrees with both! So I am turning to you dear readers to help guide my thinking on this!
Ok so, base creature is a gnome warrior CR 1/3. I will be refering to pages 250 and 252 of the Bestiary. It says that a skeletal champion has a CR of +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD. It also says to change all the creatures racial HD to D8s, then add 2 racial HD to this total. HD from class levels are unchanged.
Option A) Here is how the Bestiary seems to have done the math. Base creature 1 HD from class level, no racial HD to take away, so add 2, for a total of 3 HD. On the chart on page 250 a regular skeleton with 3 HD has a CR of 1, add 1 to that for a total of CR 2.
Option B) This seems to be how Hero Lab figured it. Base creature is 1 HD A regular skeleton with 1 HD is a CR 1/3. Since a skeletal champion has CR of 1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD, we go up one higher on the chart on page 250, and treat the new creature as if it has 2 HD, which gives a grand total of CR 1. Then continue to change the bae creature by adding the addition HD.
Both ways seem to have thier logic. After all the CR adjustment is listed first on page 252 (first as in before the HD adjustment). I hope I have made the issue clear. It is kind of an order of operations issue, and I can find no evidence in the book as to which way is right (except of course that the example creature came out to CR2 and started the EXACT same CR as my base creature, a human warrior and a gnome warrior have the same HD and CR).
Is Hero Lab wrong?
Did the Bestiary mess up it's own math?
.......Help...
Thanks ;-P
Oh and thanks in advance for any help..
option A would be how I understand it to work.
with a skeletal champion you total up its HD, compare it to the chart in the skeleton entry to determine its base CR and then add +1
Of course I think that is a dumb way for them to have chosen to determine a skeletal champions CR, it leads to such things as an 18th level living human warrior has a CR of 16 while an 18th level human warrior skeletal champion having a CR of 10 despite not actually being any weaker (assuming that they have comparable equipment).
I thought that you took the base creature, changed it to a Skeletal Champion, then added back in the class levels.
The Skeletal Champion in the PRD is CR 2 with 2 undead HD and 1 Warrior HD. A 3 HD Skeleton is only a CR 1 creature. So the Skeletal Champion has to be a CR 1 for the 2 undead HD + 1 to the CR from the Warrior level. So your 18th level Human Warrior Skeletal Champion would be CR 19, CR 1 from the 2 undead HD and +18 from the Warrior HD, or at worst CR 17 from adding in the CR 16 from the 18 Warrior HD, depending upon how you want to read the Monster Advancement from adding Class Levels.
Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.
No, that is not how the skeletal champion works according to the template (Did you even bother to read it)
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
Hit Dice:Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.
Compare too say a half dragon...
CR: Same as the base creature + 2 (minimum 3)
No HD mentioned... or the half-fiend
CR: HD 4 or less, as base creature + 1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature + 2; HD 11 or more, as base creature + 3.
Note the CR is as base creature in both cases (which is the creature you apply the template to, including any class levels, a 18th level warrior half-fiend would be CR 19--base creature CR of 16 plus 3 from the template)... skeletal champion is not... to determine a skeletal champions CR by the book, you take its total HD (including class levels) and compare it to the skeleton template, and then add 1.
Yes I did, and "base creatures" don't have class levels. Skeletons are made from the base creature. Look at how a Skeleton is made.
No, that is not how the skeletal champion works according to the template (Did you even bother to read it)
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
Hit Dice:Change all of the creature's racial HD to d8s, then add 2 racial Hit Dice to this total (creatures without racial HD gain 2). HD from class levels are unchanged.
Compare too say a half dragon...
CR: Same as the base creature + 2 (minimum 3)No HD mentioned... or the half-fiend
CR: HD 4 or less, as base creature + 1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature + 2; HD 11 or more, as base creature + 3.Note the CR is as base creature in both cases (which is the creature you apply the template to, including any class levels, a 18th level warrior half-fiend would be CR 19--base creature CR of 16 plus 3 from the template)... skeletal champion is not... to determine a skeletal champions CR by the book, you take its total HD (including class levels) and compare it to the skeleton template, and then add 1.
So, forgive me, are you saying that the cr is determined by the base creatures HD or the HD after it been adjusted by the template itself?
Yes I did, and "base creatures" don't have class levels. Skeletons are made from the base creature. Look at how a Skeleton is made.
you are wrong
look at the vampire template
“Vampire” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature with 5 or more Hit Dice (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Most vampires were once humanoids, fey, or monstrous humanoids. A vampire uses the base creature's stats and abilities except as noted here.
if you were correct about base creature not including HD from class levels, then no human could ever qualify to be the base creature for the vampire template.
As Djerk correctly stated on the other skeletal champion CR thread
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.A skeleton with 3 HD has CR 1 and the skeleton champion has additional +1 CR for a total of 2. Class levels are not involved into the CR calculation directly - they affect CR indirectly by increasing skeleton champion HD.