Goblin Squad Member
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For lack of better term I'll use the term in the PnP RPG to describe what I'm talking about, "templates." For those they are a set of modifiers added to a character to describe a change, like becoming a Vampire, Were-wolf, or Lich. Many templates aren't really appropraite, nobody wants to play and unintelligent skeleton or zombie, but people would jump at the opportunity to play a Vampire.
Basically, I feel that some kind of equivalent mechanism should exist in PFO. If a player is bitten by a Vampire or Were-Creature the player should become one with all of the advantages and disadvantages associated with it. Same if the player researches and performs the ritual to become a Lich.
This could be a huge power boost, so keeping negatives associated with the templates would be important. I also think that it be possible to lose a template, with the power associated with it a template is something like a piece of equipment. In the PnP most ways you defeat a vampire just result in the Vampire waking up the next morning in its coffin, but there are a few ways to permanently kill a vampire. Stake through the heart, burning up in sun light, etc. If a vampire player were to die one of these methods that can permanently kill a vampire the player would instead respawn as normal character without the template as though they had died a normal death. The same thing could be don't with were-creatures killed with Silver.
The Lich transformation comes with an item called a Phylactery containing the characters soul. If the Lich dies it respawns at the Phylactery. If the character doesn't care about the chance to have the phylactery destroyed by some other player he can try to hide it someplace safe to serve as a spawn point. Since this transformation would cost vast quantities of wealth a character might not want to risk it being destroyed he can keep the phylactery on his person and use most or all of his threads so that it cannot be looted. This results in a permanent Lich transformation, but all of the Liches other equipment becomes lootable.
Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I'm just concerned we will see Vampires and Were-Wolf with no chance to become them. I would rather that that kind of creature be added at the same time that it is possible to become one. The Lich can definitely wait until later since it is a high level transformation initiated by the player.
This a discussion about how the community would like this kind of thing to be handled.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Pathfinder, becoming a vampire means you are enslaved to the one who made you and becoming a werewolf means that you occasionally turn into an animal with no control over your actions.
Neither seems compatible with an online game PC. In PnP you've got a GM who can manage the parts of the character's existence which are out of their control, but there is no way Goblinworks could have people to keep track of that for each player who might be infected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Enslavement can be handled by the Infector having huge bonuses over the Infected and maybe no flags for abusing the player. So if the vamp doesn't play nice with his master he is in for a world of hurt, and if he doesn't like it he can go sun bathing. If he really wants to be a Vamp he can go find a nicer master.
For an uncontrolled transformation just flag at character as aggro to to everybody. And I see no problem with a character learning a skill to have control over their transformation.
And that is if you even want to bother porting over these mechanics.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Saddly I see much grief in this. Especially with Player to Player transmission.
If template conditions were added I'd really only like to see it cause by Environment to Player. This keeps the level of "I iz vampeer! U iz m3 b1tch!" harassment low. I can see a case where a Vamprized PvPer jumps someone or a group and counties to harass them after 'turning' them. Or a werewolf using the flagging to get people to initiate PvP in otherwise PvP freeish zones (equivalent of can flipping in EVE)
What were you thinking would be need to end conditions like Vampireisum or Lycanthropy? Just being killed and respawing?
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While not satisfying to people who want to play those monster types (not that GW has ever said they'd allow that save a select pool for select events), what I'd like to see instead perhaps is a monster spawn system that generates a monster of that temperate type based on the killed player's stats. This would add an element of serious danger to fighting 'disease' monsters like ghouls or shadows. I you die you leave you-powered mob (worth no additional loot) standing around waiting for you to come back through the hex/dungeon/zone.
As a caveat the monster's aggression would be limited to the player it was based off of or only those players who attack it directly. That way a player couldn't kite a vampire into the middle of bunch of other players, get killed, and spawn a super vampire that slaughters everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said you don't even need to use those mechanics if they would be a problem. As I said in my first post, death by sunlight is enough to remove Vampirism. It would keep the people griefing converted Vampires to a minimum because all the player needs to do to solve it is stand outside.
Similarly Were-Wolf doesn't actually need an uncontrolled mechanic just because it has one in the PnP if it would be legitimately not fun. Also things like Death by Silver or consuming Wolfbane would be ways to cure lycanthopy.
Your suggestion for less playable templates and just monsters that turn their victims into something else, like ghoouls, is pretty much exactly what I proposed in another thread,
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Goblin Squad Member
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Heh, looked at another way... with the 'blessed of pharasma' thing they are using to allow respawn after death any PC killed by a vampire would immediately return to life. If anything, your 'husk' would become a vampire... with all your abilities and vampire stats... and your best gear. Good luck getting it back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this makes more sense as prestige class than as a template. If becoming a lich/vampire/were-creature is something that a player can build to over time as part of their character development, and other players can choose to build their characters into an undead-hunter/vampire-slayer/were-hunter. Then you got some real opportunity for meaningful PVP conflict.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My thoughts on the Lich transformation kind of color my view of templates. I'm starting to see them as something like equipment. If you don't want to lose your vampirism to vampire hunters uses threads so you keep it. Down side is you don't get to thread as much equipment so more of your cool stuff gets taken when you die. The price of having something cool that others don't.
My thoughts on the Lich transformation kind of color my view of templates. I'm starting to see them as something like equipment. If you don't want to lose your vampirism to vampire hunters uses threads so you keep it. Down side is you don't get to thread as much equipment so more of your cool stuff gets taken when you die. The price of having something cool that others don't.
Not to mention where these characters would bank?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think Skyrim has the better answer there, well not over all but in kinda execution.
I do like your 'template as equipment' idea. Partly because much of what a templet does is replace equipment to one degree or another. Effective stat boosts, resistances, extra powers, even natural weapons, all of which to one degree or another get cover by equipment.
Instead of just getting infected, I'd suggest making them rewards for particular NPC factions. I know PFO is targeted to be mostly Player driven, however a certain degree of NPC faction questing is going to be needed. Making an 'evil undead' 'monster' faction who's top end rewards are various monsterish templates (monster gear) would be the solution I think.
This way there is 0 direct griefing as a result, players can't infect each r cure each other. Possibly powerful ability sets aren't gain just because you got 'thumped' by NPC mobs. And it gives some types of players a draw to Evil factions and locations, and actually a reason to be there and not just Evil by way of being Griefer &%$@&%$@.
This also offers up the counter-coin of 'good' templets that replace gear. Of which there are very few in the PFRPG itself but could find mechanical balance points in PFO to fill in the top tier.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A problem was pointed out to me a few minutes ago that GW has stated that the only way a player can play a monster is by becoming an alpha backer(or above). Then the Alpha backer will gain the priviledge of playing various monsters in game events, under to tutelage of GW employees.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont like the templates. Overall they end up being too powerful for PCs. In a TT game this isnt a big deal as TT is small and directly controlled. I can see entire guilds purposly infecting themselves, setting up settlements so they dont have any downsides, and griefing people all day long.
Its too little investment for too big a bonus. HOWEVER perhaps something like this might work.
1) You must get bitten or contract the illness.
2) The illness lays dormant unless you get rid of it
3) GW adds skill trees. So instead of training as a crafter or fighter, you train as a vampire or werewolf.
4) As you gain more skills in those trees you gain more benefits and more drawbacks.
This will provide people with a way to gain those templates, however it involves a restriction (having to train up just like everyone else) to get the power. that way someone cant just take their character, contract something and basically super power up with little effort. Investing in the skills to master those templates should take significant time to do (similar to leveling up an archtype), not something that you get it and a week later you are full power, its basically its own archtype.
Also you should not be able to get rid of it easily, it should require very rare and expensive materials, and very high crafting skill to make a cure. I mean i could see entire guilds infecting themselves (using an alt) doing nighttime raids, Killing themselves, having a cleric cast true rez...and bam back to normal no penalties.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Its too little investment for too big a bonus.
It's why I like the idea of having the Templet fill Equipment slots. The problem with Templets really is that they stack on the bonuses you can get from equipment. Take a look at the Big 6 and then look at many templets. Most are going giving out Stat boost on par of what the Big 6 might give. By making the Template and Gear mutually exclusive you can control how much power a Template has compared to a "normal" player.
I also would much prefer them to be faction awards. Top end questing rewards can actually represent quite a lot of time and effort to get. Faction Ships in EVE are quite expensive to get direct from their faction of origin, they also take all kinds of other items in addition to faction credit.
Now GW does only want Monsters played by select people to keep abuse down. However I susspect that has more do with how the "Monsters" will be allowed to break normal PvP rules and they don't want legit players getting fooled by players who look like Monster PvE targets and getting "griefed" by misidentification. There is also the issue of character models and animations. Take a Werewolf in Hybrid form, if a Player's hands it could end up with all kinds of armor and weapons (yet another good reason to make a template take up gear slots) which an AI would not.
Again, running with this idea not for even in early stages of the game but maybe 2 or 3 major updates down the line... if Player acquired templets did not significantly impact a player model, nor more then various gear or armor, and they were made quite aware that normal PvP rules applied, then it really wouldn't be much different then getting special armor and weapons.
After all playing True Monsters is going to be limited to specific events.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dislike the template equipment idea. I mean, i am now a vampire because im wearing vampire things. Not only that but it allows (unless i missed something) someone to pick and choose when they want the template to be working. Ohh look its almost day ill take off my vampire template and put my gear on and no penalties.
Not only that but templates as gear has a problem in that it allows people to sidestep item loss/repair.
I would rather templates (if they were put in, i dont think they should be) be rather permanent and very very difficult to get rid of (if you could even get rid of it). It should require time invested in training the correct skills in order to make it work, lots and lots of training.
overall i think it would be too much work to get a good way to have templates in.
The other option would be to downgrade the templates to be weak enough that if someone picked one up its not that big of a deal...So you could be a vampire thrall, lesser lycanthrope...etc.
A cheap cop out of why people cant get vampireism and lycanthropy would be the Mark of Pharasma does not allow people to get changed like that.