Rondelero Duelist Question

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

Okay, I was just thinking of bringing in a Rondelero Duelist/Rogue foe for my group, and was wondering about how the rules go for it. Most archetypes, only those abilities specifically said to be replaced are, and the rest stay.

Thing is, the archetype ONLY replaces Bravery, Weapon Training 1, and Armor Training 1-3. Despite this, Strong Swing powers up as you level and Armor Training is very good and also powers up while only replacing one thing. This leaves Weapon Training 2-4 and Armor Training 4, as well as Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery. The archetypes abilities seem to overlap in my opinion.

What's the official rule on this? Does the Rondelero Duelist get Buckler Catch, Strong Swing, Armor Training, Chopping Blow, AND Armor Training 4, Weapon Training 2-4, Armor Mastery, and Weapon Mastery? I mean, this would make it silly not to take the archetype and it is clearly superior to a normal Fighter, and I thought archetypes were only about options rather than pure enhancements.

Thanks in advance.

[Grick]

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

What's the official rule on this?

It follows the rules for archetypes. I suggest using the rules from one of the Ultimate books (Class Archetypes) as they have a bit more text than the APG.

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

Does the Rondelero Duelist get Buckler Catch, Strong Swing, Armor Training, Chopping Blow, AND Armor Training 4, Weapon Training 2-4, Armor Mastery, and Weapon Mastery?

Kind of.

When an archetype replaces an ability in a series, but doesn't replace later ones, when you get those later ones they count as earlier ones.

So since Strong Swing replaces Weapon Training 1, when you get to level 9 and would normally receive Weapon Training 2, it counts as Weapon Training 1.

Likewise with Armor Training. 1, 2, and 3 are replaced, and instead you get 1 and 2. This means at level 15 when you would normally get Fighter Armor Training 4, it functions as armor training 3. So you delay getting all your armor training abilities, and you never get the last one.

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

I mean, this would make it silly not to take the archetype and it is clearly superior to a normal Fighter

If you're inexplicably fighting with a buckler and falcata, and you're not concerned as much with fear effects or ACP/MDB, then sure, Rondelero Duelist is a good archetype.

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

Well then in that case, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping the rondelero duelist from using Weapon Training 1-3 they get later on to take Heavy Blades (which includes the falcata) and double-dip into the +1 to hit and damage, one from Strong Swing (for every four levels beyond 5th) and one from Weapon Training (for 9th and every four levels thereafter). Is there something in the rules that prevents this, or are they really this nasty offensively?

Also, the archetype says that their Armor Training grants Armor Training 2 and 15th level, but there's nothing saying Armor Training 4 gets replaced, so would that mean they get Armor Training 2 and 3 at the same time (one for the archetype and the other for the Fighter ability that never got replaced)?

I ask because the APD and UC and UM are very specific when it comes to all this, so it would seem to take the book as-is, but it seems to be against the spirit of what was intended. Or am I wrong?

[Grick]

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

Well then in that case, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping the rondelero duelist from using Weapon Training 1-3 they get later on to take Heavy Blades (which includes the falcata) and double-dip into the +1 to hit and damage

The intent might have been that Strong Swing counts as a weapon group, and so the "Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack" rule would prevent stacking with the bonus from heavy blades. But that's not really implied anywhere, and it's not what's written, so it should stack. At level 17 that means +7 to hit and damage with falcata. If a GM house rules that bucklers fall under the Close weapons group, he could have +6 atk/dmg with that, too.

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

Also, the archetype says that their Armor Training grants Armor Training 2 and 15th level, but there's nothing saying Armor Training 4 gets replaced, so would that mean they get Armor Training 2 and 3 at the same time (one for the archetype and the other for the Fighter ability that never got replaced)?

Yep, you effectively get armor training 2 and 3 at level 15.