| Sydänyö |
So, I've been looking at some fun spells for my Fighter-Wizard, and I ran into this spell Mirror Strike. I Googled for similar ideas and questions, but didn't find any, so I thought this might be a new suggestion. This is a bit of a wording-nitpick idea, something that does sort of have a logical backing of the description of the spell as well as the feat, but which still might be a tad game breaking. So here goes:
The wording of Great Cleave is as follows:
As a standard action, you can make a single attack
at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you
hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional
attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that
is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach.
So basically it says you make an attack (roll an attack roll), and if you hit - it doesn't state who you need to hit, which is the nitpicky part - you can make an additional attack and so on.
The wording of Mirror Strike is as follows:
You briefly alter the flow of time to split a melee attack into
two attacks. Before the end of your next turn, when you make
your next melee attack roll, compare the result to the AC of
two opponents within your reach.
This means that at the moment of rolling for the Great Cleave attack (a melee attack roll), you would - in theory - get to compare that roll against two opponents, instead of one.
Now, I know this is dancing on the line of being ridiculous and thus people could tell me to shut up straight away, but my thinking from a logical and RP-ish standpoint is this:
Great Cleave (and Cleave) basically allow you to continue your humongous swing, a single swinging attack, slicing through enemies enough in order for the swing to continue on it's trajectory.
Mirror Strike creates two swings out of one.
While game breaking or unfair (or stupid), it would make sense to me at least from a logical PoV, that the swing that was great and massive enough to be a cleaving attack, which gets mirrored, would be great and massive enough to be two cleaving attacks.
Thus: you'd have two Great Cleaves moving on different directions! I'd still say they couldn't hit the same targets, as Great Cleave does specifically deny that (although they're basically two separate swings), but it might be a fun effect when facing opponents on both sides.
So, what say you? Have I missed something in these wordings that I didn't already touch upon, something that wasn't mentioned here but was elsewhere? What's your own take on this idea?
| Grick |
I don't really follow what you're trying to do.
A) Cast quickened Mirror Strike
B) Standard action great cleave
B1) First attack roll: compare to the AC of two opponents within your reach. Lets say you hit both. Roll damage, and apply half to each.
B2) since you hit, Great Cleave triggers, and you can make another attack roll against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach, and so on.
The only thing I see happening is splitting your damage on the first attack. You would not trigger two 'cleaves' from mirror strike.
And all that is assuming it works at all, since Great Cleave says "If you hit, you deal damage normally..." and splitting damage isn't normal.
(-edit- I guess you would have a better chance of triggering the cleave, since you've got 2 AC values to compare the attack roll to, but is that really worth a spell?)
| Sydänyö |
I don't really follow what you're trying to do.
A) Cast quickened Mirror Strike
No. Mirror Strike will be cast on turn 1, and it'll last until the end of turn 2, which is when the Great Cleave attack will be made.
B) Standard action great cleave
B1) First attack roll: compare to the AC of two opponents within your reach. Lets say you hit both. Roll damage, and apply half to each.
B2) since you hit, Great Cleave triggers, and you can make another attack roll against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach, and so on.
The only thing I see happening is splitting your damage on the first attack. You would not trigger two 'cleaves' from mirror strike.
Mirror Strike would activate when rolling for Great Cleave, thus allowing you to roll against two targets. Great Cleave simply states if you hit, you're allowed to cleave. You could hit two targets, and therein lies the question, wouldn't you be allowed to have two cleaves to start off, especially since the description of Mirror Strike states that you "split a melee attack into two attacks."
And all that is assuming it works at all, since Great Cleave says "If you hit, you deal damage normally..." and splitting damage isn't normal.
Great Cleave doesn't require you to deal damage. It requires you to hit.
I know this is borderline the same as carrying a bag of rats to do a cleave bomb, but I just looked at the wording and thought there might be a loophole there. I'm not expecting our GM to allow it, but it's still a fun idea if in theory it might be "legal". :)
| bbangerter |
Looks valid. Realize you are using two turns of actions to pull this off.
Round 1: Cast spell
Round 2: Standard action to cleave/great cleave with the benefits of mirror strike added in.
A magus cannot shorten this to 1 round since either casting the spell takes a standard action (so no standard action left to cleave with) or using spell combat takes a full round action, so you can't combine the standard action cleave into spell combat.
| HaraldKlak |
Mirror strike only affects a single melee attack. Thus the spell affects the first attack when making a Great Cleave. The spell isn't able to double the entire Cleave, since that is a standard action, and not just a single attack. Nothing suggest that it is able to do so.
While Mirror Strike in itself is a weak spell, it is possible to combine with other abilities/debuffs to make it more useful.
Benchak the Nightstalker
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I might allow it, as I really like the concept behind it (splitting one big swing into two big swings, like you say), but you'd definitely need to keep following the rules for mirror strike with each cleave attack. Ie, roll once for each pair of targets, and split the damage in half between them.
I'd have to ponder on it for a bit though.
[Full Disclosure: I wrote mirror strike]
| TGMaxMaxer |
Aye... now consider him being a dwarven whatever, and having orc hewer, enlarged, with a reach weapon... would you still let him split the whole great cleave?
Because that will come up if you open the door... and I'll take half of 3d6 +20 on each target (by... say level 8) if I get to roll twice for all of them so I don't miss anyone and lose my chain.
| bbangerter |
And all that is assuming it works at all, since Great Cleave says "If you hit, you deal damage normally..." and splitting damage isn't normal.
Splitting damage is normal when mirror strike is active. I believe all this is saying in the great cleave feat is you do your normal damage.
If you got precision damage and made an attack with great cleave you'd get to do your precision damage if you met the requirements for it.
If you were a magus and had a held charge from the previous turn and used great cleave you'd get to do your normal damage from spell strike (spell + weapon).
If you crit while great cleaving you get to do your crit damage.
etc.
All of these things are the damage you do normally when other factors kick in.
| cwslyclgh |
I don't know theishi, it doesn't seem like a bad 1st level spell for somebody that doesn't have the cleave feat to use if he wants to try to hit more than one opponent in a round... it would certainly be better (and not over powered IMO) if it had a swift action casting time though, because as is it is the spell would be pain in the ass to use in actual combat situations (much like truestrike can be if you want to use it to enhance your melee attacks, but at least truestrike can be used to enhance ranged attacks as well, so the one round delay between casting and attacking isn't so problematic).
Benchak the Nightstalker
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:[Full Disclosure: I wrote mirror strike]What is the purpose of this spell? I really cannot see any use for it. Surely you had some ideas when you wrote it? It seems like it should be a cantrip, but even then I wouldn't use it.
I've talked about it a bit elsewhere, but I think I was responding to a post that got deleted, because I can't find it at the moment.
Originally, the spell gave a larger bonus against targets who were flanking you, but it was reduced to +2 in development. (I don't think this was a bad change, necessarily, just giving you the background).
As is, it's useful in situations where you've got a bonus on your next attack roll, or can apply a non-damaging effect with your next attack (poison, bleed, combat maneuvers, etc) and want to spread those effects across multiple enemies.
For instance, you can move into position for a charge, cast it, and then charge against multiple foes, gaining the +2 against both enemies (and extra damage, if you're a minotaur or mounted and get that on a charge). An invisible rogue could use it to sneak attack multiple targets as her invisibility drops. A magus could cast it with spell combat, and then disarm/trip two enemies at once.
It's definitely a niche spell, but it's got a few fun uses if you get creative with it.
| theishi |
As is, it's useful in situations where you've got a bonus on your next attack roll, or can apply a non-damaging effect with your next attack (poison, bleed, combat maneuvers, etc) and want to spread those effects across multiple enemies.
For instance, you can move into position for a charge, cast it, and then charge against multiple foes, gaining the +2 against both enemies (and extra damage, if you're a minotaur or mounted and get that on a charge). An invisible rogue could use it to sneak attack multiple targets as her invisibility drops. A magus could cast it with spell combat, and then disarm/trip two enemies at once.
It's definitely a niche spell, but it's got a few fun uses if you get creative with it.
I didn't realize you could use it with a trip maneuver. I also thought the sneak attack would be divided evenly. These are very interesting ideas. Very cool!
| HaraldKlak |
It is obviously primarily a spell for the magus.
Apart from the options already mentioned, some possible uses for it are:
- The serpentine sorcerer's fangs become a quite potent poison. Doubling the attack, is even better. Through eldritch heritage a magus might use it.
- Spells like frigid touch or baleful polymorph could be doubled, through the use of a 1-lvl spell the round before. In situations it might he worth it.
- Not sure whether it works, but the Hexcrafter might be able to get two Hexes off in one round.
- A Dhamphir Magus with the blood drinking feats and a bite attack could pass out some nasty debuffs with it, as well as getting temporary hp for himself.
| TGMaxMaxer |
So, Is the consensus that you roll full damage for the attack and then split it to the two targets?
If you have sneak attack, do you hit each target with the base damage, and the sneak on each?
If you have say, Smite, do you roll the full smite and what if one target is not evil? Do they still take half of the full or do you lose half of the smite or does the evil target take half base plus the full smite and the non-evil take just half base?
| Umbranus |
I would halve everything that applies to both. Things that only apply to one should be only damage the one.
So a paladin/rogue attacking with mirror strike + cleave with sneak and smite two flatfooted targets one of which is evil, I'd roll damage + sneak, halve it and apply the smite damage to only the one evil guy.