Carry Capacity and Speed of Flying Creatures


Rules Questions


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If a creature has a fly speed, and a heavy load. Can he fly? If so what is his new speed? Do I just use the same speed changes as though he were walking? It says that a creature can lift double his maximum load off of the ground, but can only stagger around with it. Can I fly with double my maximum load?


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What do you mean? An Garundi or Avistani creature?


Faery Dragon. I am considering casting both Ant Haul and Enlarge Person on it and then having it carry me out of danger :-)

He is my improved familiar btw.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-faerie


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ok, back to being serious. I seem to remember a rule that a creature that flies with wings (not with magic) can only stay in flight if it not carrying a medium or heavy load, BUT I can't find that rule in the Pathfinder PRD. maybe it was a rule from an older game.

If there is no such rule, I think the same rules as for walking should apply. i.e. reduced speed when carrying a medium or heavy load. Keep in mind that the check penalty (–3 for medium load, –6 for heavy load) applies to any Fly checks needed.

If the load was more than heavy but less than twice that, the creature could fly 5 feet per found as a full-round action but would have to make a DC 10 Fly check (for moving less than half speed), again with a –6 check penalty.

Note that the carrying capacity of Tiny creatures is reduced from the value in the table. A faery dragon's limits should be: light load 15 lbs. or less, medium load 16–30 lbs, heavy load 31–45 lbs.

With enlarge person the dragon grows to Small size and Strength 11, while ant haul triples its carrying capacity, resulting in: light load 85 lbs. or less, medium load 86–171 lbs., heavy load 172–258 lbs.

A Medium sized humanoid character with equipment might well fall in to the heavy load capacity, so, unless your character and equipment weigh more than 258 lbs., the dragon should be able to carry him away with a reduced speed of 40 ft. and a still comfortable Fly skill bonus of +17.


Yeah they have a good bonus to fly. I am a caster so I am light weight. I have a total of 15 pounds of equipment and I only weigh 135. We also have a halfling in the group and they are very light. I don't think we will need spells to carry him around. As an added bonus he has a ring of feather fall.


In order to ride a creature a couple things have to happen. First they have to be trained with the mount trick. Second the mount must be one size category larger than the rider.


I am not planning on riding him, rather he is going to pick me up. He is a dragon, so he has claws to grab with. It would be good to know how many claws he has though.

Edit: Also we are talking about an intelligent creature, no training necessary.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't think he wants to ride that dragon, that would indeed be impossible. I think he just wants to be picked up and carried away.

BTW, I think the need for the mount trick only applies to to creatures of animal Intelligence, a faerie dragon with Int 17 should not need an animal trick.

EDIT: Ninjaed by the OP! Judging from the Bestiary 3 illustration, I'd say the faerie dragon has two legs and claws. It can't attack with those though.


I am not interested in attacking with them, rather I want to know how many creatures it could pick up at a time :-) Alter self will make it a medium creature, maybe it could grab half the party.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't think alter self will help you purpose as it only allows to take a humanoid form.


If you read the description for enlarge person it specifically states that magic that alters the size of a creature do not stack.

My best guess would be that if you fall within the light load of the familiar he could haul you away. I think he would have great difficulty in grabbing anyone else based on the space available under a small creature.


Zaister wrote:
I don't think alter self will help you purpose as it only allows to take a humanoid form.

Strix are humanoid and can fly. Although the number of limbs would be mute at that point, as he would now have the number of limbs as a Strix.


Satchmo wrote:
I think he would have great difficulty in grabbing anyone else based on the space available under a small creature.

A small creature would have no difficulty grabbing someone, he is only half your size. They can grapple medium creatures right?

The question is: Does he have the wing strength to pull both of us into the air?


This idea that they can fly at full speed at light load, but cannot fly at all if you add one more pound is silly. Unless anyone can point to something that says otherwise, the most obvious answer would be to use normal walking rules.

Shadow Lodge

This has been talked about before, I think specifically with druids and roc animal companions.

I won't look for the thread, but the ruling was that the flyer can only carry a light load or can't fly. It's mentioned in the books somewhere in an obscure place I believe.


theishi wrote:

A small creature would have no difficulty grabbing someone, he is only half your size. They can grapple medium creatures right?

The question is: Does he have the wing strength to pull both of us into the air?

You are correct a small creature can grapple a single creature of medium or smaller size. My statement indicated that he could not carry a second character. Can a small creature grapple two creatures of medium or smaller size? No. This was actually the reasoning behind my comment about not being able to pick up a second party member.


p.162 in Core rule book under barding "Flying mounts can’t fly in medium or heavy barding.
Removing and fitting barding takes five times as
long as the figures given on Table 6–7. A barded animal
cannot be used to carry any load other than a rider and
normal saddlebags." that is the rule getting confused.

As a DMG and considering all medium armor in that book has a minimum armor check penalty is = to medium load penalty and the max Dex allowed by light armor never gets as low medium load penalty. That flying with a medium load is not possible as a medium load restricts you the same as medium armor worse in some cases.

Heavy load match the same only more so as the minimum max Dex and penalty to armor check = to effects of heavy load. Further more the rules state that a heavy load will not slow you down any more then then already being in heavy armor. suggest a = relationship also.

But note dragon is a quadruped it carry capacity is one step high there for a tiny fairy dragons lifting ability 3/4 the score = to that of a small Bipedal. You dm may say since it only has two wings use bipedal str for flight.


KainPen wrote:

p.162 in Core rule book under barding "Flying mounts can’t fly in medium or heavy barding.

Removing and fitting barding takes five times as
long as the figures given on Table 6–7. A barded animal
cannot be used to carry any load other than a rider and
normal saddlebags." that is the rule getting confused.

As a DMG and considering all medium armor in that book has a minimum armor check penalty is = to medium load penalty and the max Dex allowed by light armor never gets as low medium load penalty. That flying with a medium load is not possible as a medium load restricts you the same as medium armor worse in some cases.

Heavy load match the same only more so as the minimum max Dex and penalty to armor check = to effects of heavy load. Further more the rules state that a heavy load will not slow you down any more then then already being in heavy armor. suggest a = relationship also.

But note dragon is a quadruped it carry capacity is one step high there for a tiny fairy dragons lifting ability 3/4 the score = to that of a small Bipedal. You dm may say since it only has two wings use bipedal str for flight.

BOLD is done by me...

I totally (repectfully)disagree.. and I'm simply confused why so many people assume 2 wings = biped.. where "ped" actually means FOOT and has nothing to do with wings..

Quadraped, Biped, etc. refers to the build of a creature. The build doesn't change because of how it's using it's limbs at any given time. A Horse for example can rear up and strike with it's front hooves. But that doesn't make it a biped, even for those short moments. Quadrapeds are more massive than biped creatures of the same size and have more massive muscles as well. That is where there encumbrance capacity vs bipeds comes from.... the entire build of the creature, not just it's number of legs.

Another thing to consider is how Flight is achieved... a bird uses its wings for flying, an Air Elemental has no wings at all (and can Fly better than any Bird)..

A Dragon is mythical an uses both wings and magic for flight (in real life a creature the size of a dragon could never achieve flight just with WINGS alone.

Here is an old but decent thread about flying and encumbrance


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Wow, this keeps coming up over and over.

Back in 3.5 there was a rule limiting flying creatures to a light load. That rule was removed in PF (intentionally or not, we do not know).

The ONLY remnant restricting fliers is the barding rule.

Barding is NOT the same thing as encumbrance. For that matter, Barding is not the same thing as armor. A Flying creature can wear heavy armor. It cannot wear heavy barding.

To put this another way:
1) Barding is a subset of Armor.
2) Barding applies to mounts only.
3) Barding does not apply to creatures which are not mounts. If a wolf is used as a mount, it wears barding (if it is trained for it). It a wolf is not used as a mount, it wears armor (if it is trained for it).
4) Barding has a restriction. That does not mean Armor has the restriction.

Now, some people try to draw a line between Barding and the following statement:

CRB p169 wrote:
A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.

The flaw in that is that you can draw a line from encumbrance to armor. But you cannot draw a line from armor to barding since barding is a subset of armor.

Diagram:
Barding -> Armor
Encumbrance -> Armor

Put together you get:
Barding -> Armor <- Encumbrance.

You do NOT get:
Barding -> Armor -> Encumbrance
Barding <- Armor <- Encumbrance

Summary:
Fliers can wear Medium or Heavy armor and be medium or heavy encumbered and still fly (at reduced speed). The rules that prevented this are part of 3.5 and not Pathfinder.
Fliers cannot wear Medium or Heavy Barding and stay flying.

If you wish, you can houserule the 3.5 rules back into the game. :)

- Gauss


Wow. Well said. Thank you sir. I wish I could upvote you, but this isn't reddit.


While Gauss is correct in his description of the rules, to me it is implausible that the presence of armour on a mount prevents it from flying completely.

A creature could be wearing full plate without proficency, and carrying a heavy load, yet still be able to fly.

The same creature could be wearing hide armour, but when a halfling rider climbs on, it is no longer able to fly, even though it might still have a light load including the weight of the halfling.

If this matter ever came up in one of my games, I would houserule it.


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There is nothing in the rules that state that encumbrance will prevent flight. The closest thing you will find is barding on mounts. If you are not a mount, or if you are not wearing barding, then you are good to go as far as the RAW is concerned.

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