I was reading over the Undead Lord archetype and the Undead Companion it gains and was thinking: Why not have a cleric with a golem-like construct companion? Golems, after all, originate from old Hebrew legends of Rabbis building them to defend their communities.
My primary concern is a balanced progression for the Golem Companion. How big should it be? Can it grow as the Rabbi gains levels? What should be its starting ability scores?
In the story, the golem is constructed from clay for a purpose, and the purpose is not to follow around master and clobber orcs for him. Constructing a golem the traditional way will cover the use in the myth, I believe
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One of the domains gives a Cleric an Animal Companion as a Druid of 4 levels lower (or three? Something like that). That's a good place to start for building the golems - the golem of a 1st-level Rabbi who gives up a single domain should be roughly equivalent to the Animal Companion of a 4th- or 5th-level Druid.
Of course that begs the question - what were you thinking of having the Cleric give up for the Rabbi Archetype? Figure that out, and building a golem progression wouldn't be very hard. In fact, I could pretty easily put one up here, if I knew what you wanted them to give up.
Of course that begs the question - what were you thinking of having the Cleric give up for the Rabbi Archetype? Figure that out, and building a golem progression wouldn't be very hard. In fact, I could pretty easily put one up here, if I knew what you wanted them to give up.
I would say that constructs are a bit more powerful than undead, so I'd say give up both domains as a clean and easy trade off.
In the story, the golem is constructed from clay for a purpose, and the purpose is not to follow around master and clobber orcs for him. Constructing a golem the traditional way will cover the use in the myth, I believe
I do not wish to cover the myth precisely so much as draw inspiration from it. Besides, an orc Rabbi could use his golem companion to clobber elves, too. And there can be Drow Rabbi, Centaur Rabbi, Catfolk Rabbi...
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As a Jew, the concept of a Drow Rabbi makes me giggle. Not in the "that's vaguely racist uncomfortable giggle," but in the "haha oh wow I would totally play one of those giggle".
But in all seriousness, dropping both domains for a tough construct companion sounds totally fair to me. Might have to throw in a little bit about a good Rabbi's golem is healed by positive energy effects, and an evil Rabbi's golem is healed by negative energy effects, and a neutral Rabbi gets to choose?
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But in all seriousness, dropping both domains for a tough construct companion sounds totally fair to me. Might have to throw in a little bit about a good Rabbi's golem is healed by positive energy effects, and an evil Rabbi's golem is healed by negative energy effects, and a neutral Rabbi gets to choose?
Stolen and added.
Also, should be done in just a few. Had a bit of distraction.
definitely watching closely, some thoughts though.
1.would like to see more elemental bodies as well as material or attack type reductions.
2.some built in non-disarmable quickdraw weapons (probably requiring weapon training) would also be nice.
3.would like the ability to "eat" scrolls for unique abilities (a sort of nod to the original myths)
would like to know what you guys think.
Actually, I'm not done (will be working on it off and on for a bit), but here's the link anyway. Check it out, and it'll be done not too long.
This is looking great so far Austin. May I suggest that when it gets an ability boost it not be allowed to put into Intelligence and add a rule that they can not be "awakened" in any way? These things are powerful enough without feats and class skills.
And I like Toasters idea about consuming divine scrolls. Maybe there is potential in that.
Since my name is Aaron and I was named after one of the most underrated Hebrew clerics of all time it is nice to see the rabbi getting his due in game.
Rather than dropping both domains, how about dropping one domain and decreasing them to light armor and wizard weapons, reflecting the idea that they depend on the golem for defense?
Rather than dropping both domains, how about dropping one domain and decreasing them to light armor and wizard weapons, reflecting the idea that they depend on the golem for defense?
i would like that idea, the only thing i can think my players would say is "why would anyone take anything but the artifice domain?". personally i would see problems with the animal domain myself. maybe a restriction on what domains they are allowed to take?
Rather than dropping both domains, how about dropping one domain and decreasing them to light armor and wizard weapons, reflecting the idea that they depend on the golem for defense?
I second that. The hulking Hebrew that fully armored, decked-out Rabbi would look like isn't in keeping with the old stories.
I think you would get what you want (in terms of appropriate armor and weapons as well as a more scholarly bent traditionally associated with rabbis) if you start with the Cloistered Cleric archetype and replace its sole domain with the golem companion.
i would like that idea, the only thing i can think my players would say is "why would anyone take anything but the artifice domain?". personally i would see problems with the animal domain myself. maybe a restriction on what domains they are allowed to take?
Artifice would certainly make sense for a domain for this kind of cleric, but it's not ideal - it just lets you fix objects (not constructs) and damage constructs. No healing in there, and constructs can't be healed by healing spells normally, as I remember.
If you want to go with domains that seem rabbi-ish, you might go with... hm. Artifice, Community, Knowledge and Rune?
I think you would get what you want (in terms of appropriate armor and weapons as well as a more scholarly bent traditionally associated with rabbis) if you start with the Cloistered Cleric archetype and replace its sole domain with the golem companion.
Good call.
Gosh if I was going to make a "rabbi" I would use cloistered cleric.
I'm not so sure ancient jewish high priests, attributed to the golem mythology were referred to as rabbis at that time were they?
I was under the impression 'Rabbi' was a modern-ish term for jewish clergy.
Although I can't recall anything older except Priest. High Priest and Judge, off hand.
I'm having a hard time seeing "Rabbi" as a golem master, maybe evangelist....
eh maybe im just hung up on the word.
Older version of DND just had tomes of golem creation, is that not cannon anymore?
Maybe have them take the Community domain?
I think that Rabbit was used after the Babylonian Captivity with the rise of the synagouge but I might be mistaken.
Maybe have them take the Community domain?
I think that Rabbit was used after the Babylonian Captivity with the rise of the synagogue but I might be mistaken.
community makes sense, as that typically was what golems were intended to defend (sometimes with less than ideal results)
First off, thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions.
Second, the Rabbi Archetype intended for this fantasy gaming context is simply a cleric with a golem. The cleric can have personal, professional, and religious goals that need not always be defending. In this context, a Rabbi can be of any alignment, race, or faith and do whatever they please within the realms of their fantasy faith. This is intended as an archetype, not a stereotype.
Thirdly, nearly all faiths have had cloistered and warrior members of their preisthoods. Jewish Priests are no exception. A Rabbi that knows Krav Maga is not cloistered.
How about something like "Formshaper" as the original word for a golem meant an "unshaped form"?
I honestly really don't like Rabbi as an archetype name. Not only because it uses a real world religious term that hasn't been overused to the point of losing meaning, but I always think of Rabbi more as a learned scholar (as I believe it means teacher) than as a golem master.
Cleric is a real world religious term, that's what they call many of the Muslim Holy men, Mullah is more of a title, Cleric is the job.
Priest is a real world use too, that's mostly christians (and formerly jews in older times)
Monk is a Holy man in eastern faiths.
What do the hindus call theirs? It's escaping me...
Edit: Clerical work, derives from cleric, because it was the holy men that were the first to read, and those with clerical study/education also did other things requiring reading/and writing. Hence the root word, cleric.
Cleric is a real world religious term, that's what they call many of the Muslim Holy men, Mullah is more of a title, Cleric is the job.
Priest is a real world use too, that's mostly christians (and formerly jews in older times)
Monk is a Holy man in eastern faiths.
What do the hindus call theirs? It's escaping me...
Edit: Clerical work, derives from cleric, because it was the holy men that were the first to read, and those with clerical study/education also did other things requiring reading/and writing. Hence the root word, cleric.
Not only because it uses a real world religious term that hasn't been overused to the point of losing meaning...
Hindu priest cast are known as brahmin, although in the modern period not all brahmin are priests. Hindu priests have different names based on role.
My point is that rabbi specifically conjures up the connection to Jeudaism while priest, monk, cleric, and the like have been generalized through overuse (much in the same way that Kleenex is a company, but we often call tissues kleenexes [at least up here in the great white north]). Thug is another good example, as it comes from the Indian thugee cult but now means something only somewhat related to this original term.
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I believe cutting all references from the original myth (which removing the entirety of the religion-specific naming would effectively do) would be a reasonable hit to the archetype's flavor.
Rabbi isn't necessarily the best name, but something as nonspecific as "Formshaper" doesn't even remotely invoke the myth of the clay golem with God's name on a slip of paper in its mouth.
I believe cutting all references from the original myth (which removing the entirety of the religion-specific naming would effectively do) would be a reasonable hit to the archetype's flavor.
Rabbi isn't necessarily the best name, but something as nonspecific as "Formshaper" doesn't even remotely invoke the myth of the clay golem with God's name on a slip of paper in its mouth.
Maybe not to those who don't know the Hebrew meaning of Golem...
I have read a grand total of one such story. I would suggest the following:
1) Don't remove domains, or at least don't remove more than one. Base the domains on Judaism. This means you'll probably need to create some new domains. The rabbi in that story (and his two assistants) each mastered one element, plus they used clay to stand in for the earth. So presumably rabbi can have access to one (or two) elemental domains, but it's not common practice to take more than one of them. Three rabbi had to work together to make a golem, and they still needed help.
The end result is making a golem requires more than the spells a cleric normally has. Creation requirements might be [fire spell], [water spell], [earth spell] and [air spell], but you could substitute one or more spells with lots of components.
Having an archetype that depends on two other characters also having the archetype is problematic.
2) The golem, while originally made of clay, actually transformed into flesh. The golem was essentially a cross between a clay and a flesh golem. It had intelligence and might even have been able to speak. (I think it didn't because it was ordered not to.)
3) The golem didn't go berserk, but that might have happened in other stories.
4) The rabbi couldn't fight, which was one reason he created the golem. (Despite having control over water, the chief rabbi didn't drown his enemies.) If you're making a new class, they shouldn't have armor proficiency and don't use anything more complicated than a quarterstaff. However, that's pretty weaksauce for an adventuring class. If you aren't looking for an adventuring class, maybe this could be an NPC class.
My understanding is this is supposed to be an archetype for the cleric. I don't think you need to create a whole new class to get the desired effect.
5) Not all rabbi have a golem. I agree with what seems like the consensus; the golem is simply a variant golem created by members of a certain religion, just like in some settings, only the Egyptian-analogue priests ever make mummies.
Yes. This is why rabbi is a weird name. Also, I think that the archetype should focus heavily on the DnDized version of the golem with only passing reference to the myth.
Maybe start with a weak clay golem while the cleric has next to no combat skills. As you level, the golem advances (maybe as an animal companion, maybe with a small selection of eidolon evolutions or construct traits). At certain levels, the material can be changed (maybe clay -> stone -> iron?).
That is a sizable number of people, let me assure you.
Yes, but there are archetypes and powers named after fairly obscure historical sources.
Savage Skald? I'm sure most games have heard the term skald, but many do not know its history. Many monk archetypes make reference to things many players will not be familiar with.
That being said, I was just suggesting a name. I really don't like rabbi. For me, even Golembound, Golemite, Golem Builder or some such lazy name would be better.
is there something called kabbalist yet, i honestly cant remember.
Okay, Okay. Rabbi may not be the best name for it. I concede. Name it what you will, Austin. You're the one doing the work.
Older version of DND just had tomes of golem creation, is that not cannon anymore?
Golem manuals. They are still here.