Holy Vindicator Stigmata Help

[Gunner-Recall]

Hello All, quick rules question on Stigmata:

Stigmata (Su): A vindicator willingly gives his blood in service to his faith, and is marked by scarified wounds appropriate to his deity. He may stop or start the flow of blood by force of will as a standard action; at 6th level it becomes a move action, and at 10th level it becomes a swift action. Activating stigmata causes bleed damage equal to half the vindicator's class level, and this bleed damage is not halted by curative magic. While the stigmata are bleeding, the vindicator gains a sacred bonus (if he channels positive energy) or profane bonus (if he channels negative energy) equal to half his class level. Each time he activates his stigmata, the vindicator decides if the bonus applies to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, Armor Class, caster level checks, or saving throws; to change what the bonus applies to, the vindicator must deactivate and reactivate his stigmata.

When it says "Half the Vindicator's Class Level" does that only mean it'd be a +1 at Level 1 Holy Vindicator, or is that total Class level of the character? In the book I believe it says "Half His class level".

This seems a bit underpowered at level 1, if it is only half vindicator level.

[Pharmalade]

You get the ability at level 2. Half of 2 is one.

I had the same reaction thanks to the page-break.

[Gunner-Recall]

Okay, so its only half Vindicator level then.

[Weirdo]

If an ability says "level" or "class level" it means levels in the class that has the ability (in this case, Vindicator levels). If it meant to use your total level, it would say "character level."

[Xanotos]

Then what does it mean when it says that the "The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability?" The implied meaning of that phrase is that Vindicator class levels stack with Paladin levels, period. If that is the case, then I intend to just rack up paladin levels after getting stigmata so that I can have a well developed divine bond AND a nasty stigmata sacred bonus. This thing really should have at least been written clearly enough for it to be POSSIBLE to derive a coherent interpretation from it.

[Rynjin]

John Stalter wrote:

Then what does it mean when it says that the "The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability?"

Go read it again, you'll notice that that is listed under the Vindicator's Channel Energy ability, and not as a universal class feature.

They stack for determining Channel Energy dice, and nothing more.

[Xanotos]

Here are some more questions about the meaning of the following 2 pertinent excerpts from the rule book, followed by a brief observation, then another question:

Excerpt 1) Channel Energy (Su): The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

Excerpt 2) Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains new spells per day as if...

Does the placement of these rules under the heading of "Channel Energy" or some other class feature limit the effect of the rules to actions or abilities that involve the indicated class features?

Is Stigmata considered energy channeling, given that the nature of the bonus granted by the stigmata is determined by the type of energy channeled?

Will my class level for the purpose of calculating the sacred bonus during stigmata be the sum of all energy-channeling class levels (as the literal interpretation of the "channel energy" rule implies) OR the Vindicator level only.

One thing that I think bears noting is that the distinction between "character level" and "class level" introduced above may only apply in cases where the character has levels in a non-channeling class. The channel energy rule explicitly states that channeling class levels all stack with Vindicator class levels. It seems to me that "vindicator class level" therefore means "total channeling class levels gained by a vindicator, unless specifically stated otherwise."

[Xanotos]

We may be reading different versions, I will paste what I'm looking at and please let me no if something is missing.

Class Features
The following are class features of the holy vindicator prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A vindicator is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armor and shields (except tower shields).

Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If he had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a vindicator, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Channel Energy (Su): The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

[Xanotos]

1) While the stigmata are bleeding, the vindicator gains a sacred bonus (if he channels positive energy) or profane bonus (if he channels negative energy) equal to half his class level.

2) The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

Various terms used to denote level: "Character Level," "Class Level," "Vindicator's Class Level." None of these are clearly defined and its quite annoying. I appreciate your input Rynjin but I'm afraid that Im just too frustrated by this to want to think about it any more right now.

[Xanotos]

loooool kalenz

[Rynjin]

John Stalter wrote:

1) While the stigmata are bleeding, the vindicator gains a sacred bonus (if he channels positive energy) or profane bonus (if he channels negative energy) equal to half his class level.

2) The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

Various terms used to denote level: "Character Level," "Class Level," "Vindicator's Class Level." None of these are clearly defined and its quite annoying. I appreciate your input Rynjin but I'm afraid that Im just too frustrated by this to want to think about it any more right now.

'Kay, here's the confusion you're having.

1.) Character level is your level in a specific class. "Vindicator's class level" just refers to the number of Vindicator levels you have. Your class level in the Vindicator class.

Character Level, on the other hand, is the sum total of all your class levels. For example, a guy with 5 levels of Paladin has a Paladin Class Level of 5, and a character level of 5. But a guy with 2 levels of Rogue, 1 of Wizard, and 2 of Bard has a Rogue class level of 2, Wizard class level of 1, and Bard class level of 2, but still has a character level of 5.

2.) The Stigmata's bonus is determined by the TYPE of energy the Vindicator channels (since Alignment Channel Elemental Channel is required for Holy Vindicator, Channel Energy is a required class feature as well). If they Channel Positive Energy, it's a sacred bonus. If they Channel Negative Energy, it's a profane bonus. This affects nothing else.

3.) A Vindicator's gains the Channel Energy ability, sort of. Their levels stack with their previous levels to determine the power of the Channel Energy. A Cleric 5/Holy Vindicator 2 would channel as a 7th level Cleric when determining how many dice to roll. This affects nothing else.

4.) A Vindicator adds +1 to the existing Spellcasting class most levels. As it says, though, it counts for nothing but the spellcasting ability. A Cleric gains more spells per day, a higher caster level, and access to new spell levels, but their Domain Abilities don't increase. Likewise a Paladin gets +1 spell level, spells per day, and a higher caster level, but his other class features don't increase (such as Divine Bond).

5.) A Holy Vindicator's stigmata is specifically based on the Vindicator's class level, not his character level. A Holy Vindicator 10/Paladin 10 has a +5 bonus to his Stigmata. A Holy Vindicator 4/Paladin 6 has a +2 bonus from his Stigmata, simple as that.

[Xanotos]

Ok thanks a lot for explaining. I was looking for those answers for a long time so that is extremely helpful.

[The black raven]

If the Holy Vindicator has the Versatile Channeler feat, can he

1) use Vindicator's Shield twice to get both a sacred bonus and a profane bonus (stacking) to his AC ?

2) choose whether his stigmata bonus is sacred or profane ?

[wraithstrike]

The black raven wrote:

If the Holy Vindicator has the Versatile Channeler feat, can he

1) use Vindicator's Shield twice to get both a sacred bonus and a profane bonus (stacking) to his AC ?

2) choose whether his stigmata bonus is sacred or profane ?

This is a situation where the creation of one rule did not take into account the creation of another rule. RAW it may be be possible, but I doubt it is RAI. I would only allow the primary version of channeling to work. As an example if a cleric chose positive energy at character creation then the he would always channel positive energy for the purpose of both class abilities.