|
While I enjoy the PF IP as next as the next person, what I really enjoy is the game mechanics. I just see a D&D online that is unrecognizable as far as rules go, and now I see a PF online that will be unrecognizable.
Perhaps I just don't know enough about programing and the capabilities of an online game, but I what I want, and I'm betting a lot of other people want, is to play PF or D&D whenever I want by hopping online.
There was a game that was released in 2003 called Temple of Elemental Evil which really stands out for me as the best experience I've ever had playing a D&D video game. It just duplicated the rules, good and bad, and provided a simliar experience to playing the table-top game. I still play it to this day when I have the itch to play DnD and no one is around.
In my dreams, I see a PF online game in which you log on, create a character in the exact same manner you would in the table top game. You enter the world, and mind you this doesn't even have to be in 3-D (maybe even using sprites), roam around, interact with people, then when combat begins, it changes to the battle screen (maybe an overhead view like a tabletop, sort of like in Heroes of Might and MAgic, that is randomized depending on the terrain you are in), then your group, or whoever is in range of the battle that wants to participate, rolls initative and the rounds begin. Each participant has a five to ten second timer to enter in their movement and action (exactly as it is in Temple of Elemental Evil) before they lose their turn and initative goes to the next person. And it would be even easier for instanced dungeons...just create the layout of the dungeon and monsters. Force the players to use resource management by only allowing them to rest outside the dungeon, which then repopulates, or in certain "safe" areas.
It just doesn't seem like that should be that difficult to produce, as compared to the 3-D gigantic worlds that are being maintained these days, unless I am way off here. Keep the D20 base. The biggest disappointment of The Old Republic for me was that the D20 nature of the rules that Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 had was abandoned in favor of the WoW standard.
I don't care about mining, crafting, etc., or playing a MMORPG that has the "spirit" (read: logo) of a game I enjoy. I want to play the actual game or as close to it as I can. I just don't see why the effort hasn't been undertaken by anyone. Do you think it wouldn't sell? Are people so entrenched in the WoW and even EVE molds that they wouldn't try something new (but actually old)? Or is it simply programming limitations? ToEE could do it and that game is ten years old (Buy it at Gog.com to see what I am talking about).
CEO, Goblinworks
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Imagine this: You get 6 seconds to decide what action to take. (You could get six minutes for all it matters, but 6 seconds is the minimum amount of time you could be allocated).
Per the rules as written, everyone acts in initiative order.
Now imagine that there's 30 people engaged in a fight. Even if we assumed that half of them overlapped their initiative with another player, we're still talking 15 * 6 seconds == 90 seconds PER TURN.
There is no imaginable on-line gaming experience where a profitable number of customers would wait a minute and a half between actions in a fight.
Now, let's look at some quick math. How many orcs does it take to go from 1st to 2nd level?
There are three experience tracks in Pathfinder. Let's use the slow one. (The faster tracks are even worse for this example). It requires 3,000 XP to advance from 1st to 2nd level.
A common orc is CR 1/3.
Let's assume a party of 6 (smaller parties make the problem worse).
Killing an orc awards 25 XP.
So a party of 6 players would need to kill 120 orcs to advance a level.
Let's imagine it takes 2 rounds to for 6 characters to kill 1 orc. 6 characters require 36 seconds to act or 72 seconds to act twice. 2.4 hours to advance a level.
That is much, much too long for new characters. There is no commercially viable business that makes a player wait 2,4 hours to improve their character for the first time.
But ... it's much, much too FAST over the long term. 20 levels only takes 48 hours. That's trivial for hardcore MMO players who put in 8 hours a day (and those aren't really the hardcore players). 8 hours a day of play means you hit the level cap in 6 days.
There's no commercially viable market of players that can be sustained in a game that turns you into a demigod in 6 days.
And that's why nobody use tabletop game mechanics for MMOs.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The table top version of PF and D&D are turn base systems, while the MMORPGs are real time systems, whether they persistent or not.
Ignoring licensing issues and focus on mechanics only. Turn base mechanics is very different to real time mechanics.
In turn based system of a few players, one can have more "real" playing environment of sleep, hunger, time travel, and all that is available. A persistent world (instance for those players) is still very possible with server software on the GM's PC, or lucky to have shared hosting elsewhere holding many modified instances.
In turn based, one can have time jumps, like 8 hours sleep pass without incidence in a sec, thus not a boring wait to do the next thing. Same goes for crafting, if everyone is doing something similar, or activities taking about the same time, then time jumps are possible. In real time systems, this is not possible, as time moves forward at constant rate.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think there is a missconception that NWN or DDO use tabletop rules. They don't; they use an interpreation of it for use in a computer game, because real-time mechanics are prohibitive in such a medium.
This is very much what Goblinworks is doing with PFO, using an interpretation of the pathfinder table top game to create a pathfinder online game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Temple of Elemental Evil was a single player game. It was only the eternally patient computer having to wait for you to catch up.
If you really wanted to learn elementary programming you might try and automate your rule books and dice rolls and use the product to DM your face-to-face sessions. Just don't try and sell it because that would violate the copyrights of your rulebooks.
You would also rather quickly realize exactly what you were requesting.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Penny Arcade was talking about some JRPG that appeared to use the miniatures on a table top environment as it's game mechanics and dice as the tools of your arsenal. That'd be close to something like what your talking about.
I don't remember the name of it but it was reasonably recently.
Personally I wish games would move away from the massively and just be multiplayer. Something like Neverwinter Nights did pretty well and Neverwinter Nights 2 completely screwed up.
|
|
Wow, you guys are referring to 30 people in a fight, 50 people in a fight...Granted I've never played WoW to the high levels (I get bored and quit at about level 10), but I didn't realize that groups were made up of that many people.
However, I've never played a PF or DnD game that had more than seven people in a group. At six seconds per turn, that's a max of 42 seconds of wait time, assuming that the monsters go at the same time. I can wait 42 seconds. I do it every time I play TT or on MapTools or I suspect, Paizo's Gamespace. Plus, it's not like you are waiting and staring at the ceiling. You are waiting and watching to see what everyone does and how it affects the battle. "Oh, Bob moved there, I guess I can't cleave now, I wonder what Joe will do? Oh, good he is going to provide me flanking. Where can I place my fireball to hit the most people without hitting my guys? Hey, it's my turn!" The nature of the game would require diligence, as it does in the tabletop game, and require you to plan your turn, since you only have six seconds to apply it.
Why would there ever be 50 people in a battle? Cap it at six. Problem solved, PFS feel maintained.
If there is no response from the player three times (went to the bathroom), that player is booted from combat with a penalty.
Temple of Elemental Evil was a single player game. It was only the eternally patient computer having to wait for you to catch up.
If you really wanted to learn elementary programming you might try and automate your rule books and dice rolls and use the product to DM your face-to-face sessions. Just don't try and sell it because that would violate the copyrights of your rulebooks.
You would also rather quickly realize exactly what you were requesting.
Magic the Gathering Online seems to do a good job at updating their database with rules changes and additions, if that is what you are referring to. I started playing it when it came out and every three months there are new cards, mechanics, etc., all of which need to gel with everything that came before it. It's very nearly a completely different game these days.
And the great thing about XP is that you can make it as much or as little you want...XP doesn't seem like a good reason to me as it is completely arbitrary. As a DM, I don't even give out XP. Heck, go the Mythic route and only allow the players to advance once they've completed storylines. If people are advancing too quickly in beta, increase the level reqs or decrease the XP given. Have two modes, normal and hardcore. One for people who want to play for three months, and one for people who want to play for three years. Give rewards, encourage people to try new builds, release NWN-style PFS scenarios...
Once the players reach the level cap of 20, they can either do some end game stuff or start again on a new character. Even if you go core that's 9 or 10 completely unique game experiences to go through. And that is not even counting the build manipulations. I know my problem with PF is that I don't get to play the number of characters and/or builds that I want. I've got about seven fighter builds ready to go that are just sitting there.
I also believe in the game enough that there are people who would want to play a turn-based MMORPG based on PF, even if they had to wait 60 seconds to play. But you are probably right, those darn kids today need constant stimulation.
I respect Mr. Dancey as a leader and expert in his field, (I also thank him for taking the time to post here), but I just wish as a consumer that my wants were fulfilled. Maybe someday. As a layperson, I don't see any innovation in this area from any company. I see dupliation and replication of previous successes, which is fine and safe for most companies, but ultimately not that interesting to me.
Again, only an opinion. And a dream.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Personally I wish games would move away from the massively and just be multiplayer. Something like Neverwinter Nights did pretty well and Neverwinter Nights 2 completely screwed up.
I can only agree with your statement. I completely forgot that I have NWN and it's expansion. Never got to play NWN2, due to dropping Linux support with NWN2. But did hear of the mess they made.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
well 30 or more people in the same place in an MMO is well, not really that much.
i mean if you are limiting it to 6 people playing at once..... i mean for a dungeon that would be fine but for persistent world?
basically the only way for that to work would be to have a non combat (thus no combat round) city areas where people can meet and gather. Then when they leave there they go to an instanced part of the world that way the game could limit how many people were in an area at once.
more like a multi player game than an mmo.
I think there is a missconception that NWN or DDO use tabletop rules. They don't; they use an interpreation of it for use in a computer game, because real-time mechanics are prohibitive in such a medium.
This is very much what Goblinworks is doing with PFO, using an interpretation of the pathfinder table top game to create a pathfinder online game.
Have you ever created anything as a dm in NWN with aurora? it actualy is the closest thing to a carbon copy of 3.0 rules you will ever get, as long as you play single players its fine, once you get into the multiplayer environments of the persistent worlds people had made such as the wheel of time themed servers you see just how amazingly done the 3.0 stuff was for single player and how it was terrible for multiplayer.
Classes are identical , skills identical, feats identical, spells were slightly altered in some cases but for the most part identical. I was able to make carbon copies of all my DnD chars in hordes of the under dark and have them do the exact same things exact same way with the exact same die rolls as on the PnP TT.
the point i am making , NWN was a perfect PC translation of the rules set of 3.0 with only very minor changes where they were needed for a pc environment, it just does not work so well in a real time multiplayer environment.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Bad, PFO is looking at not just parties adventuring together but actual battlefields where combattents can gain buffs/advantages by their formation.
I'm talking about a phalanx of twelve heavy infantry hitting their line backed by twenty-four medium infantry to exploit the breach, or light infantry rolling up their right flank while the shieldwall holds the attention of the line, forcing the enemy to commit his reserves against infilading archers in the tree line.
He would have to send in the sorcerers.
We aren't just talking about Pockets O'Neel lifting your purse and contemplating your throat: we are also talking real PvP the way it should be done.
Even then there are to be real economic/social/religious reasons for such a war because there are people in that blockaded settlement and the children are starving in there.
We're talking about struggles between nations in order to secure a trade route or protect valuable resources.
This isn't just six people sitting around a table. We are talking hundreds, and thousands of people.
Maybe this all seems blase to a guy like you, but to a simple man like me it is exciting to contemplate.
Wow, you guys are referring to 30 people in a fight, 50 people in a fight...Granted I've never played WoW to the high levels (I get bored and quit at about level 10), but I didn't realize that groups were made up of that many people.
However, I've never played a PF or DnD game that had more than seven people in a group. At six seconds per turn, that's a max of 42 seconds of wait time, assuming that the monsters go at the same time. I can wait 42 seconds. I do it every time I play TT or on MapTools or I suspect, Paizo's Gamespace. Plus, it's not like you are waiting and staring at the ceiling. You are waiting and watching to see what everyone does and how it affects the battle. "Oh, Bob moved there, I guess I can't cleave now, I wonder what Joe will do? Oh, good he is going to provide me flanking. Where can I place my fireball to hit the most people without hitting my guys? Hey, it's my turn!" The nature of the game would require diligence, as it does in the tabletop game, and require you to plan your turn, since you only have six seconds to apply it.
Why would there ever be 50 people in a battle? Cap it at six. Problem solved, PFS feel maintained.
If there is no response from the player three times (went to the bathroom), that player is booted from combat with a penalty.
Magic the Gathering Online seems to do a good job at updating their database with rules changes and additions, if that is what you are referring to. I started playing it when it came out and every three months there are new cards,...Temple of Elemental Evil was a single player game. It was only the eternally patient computer having to wait for you to catch up.
If you really wanted to learn elementary programming you might try and automate your rule books and dice rolls and use the product to DM your face-to-face sessions. Just don't try and sell it because that would violate the copyrights of your rulebooks.
You would also rather quickly realize exactly what you were requesting.
you don't want an mmo you want never winter nights set in the pathfinder world. which coinceadently i would buy in a heart beat, Hint Hint GW after PFO is done you guys should make a NWN style pc game for pathfinder.
|
|
well 30 or more people in the same place in an MMO is well, not really that much.
i mean if you are limiting it to 6 people playing at once..... i mean for a dungeon that would be fine but for persistent world?
basically the only way for that to work would be to have a non combat (thus no combat round) city areas where people can meet and gather. Then when they leave there they go to an instanced part of the world that way the game could limit how many people were in an area at once.
more like a multi player game than an mmo.
Yes, that is what I am saying. You would have non-combat mode, walking around, talking to shopkeepers, traveling, then when danger strikes, Final Fantasy or Heroes of Might and Magic-style combat mode initated in an instanced play area. Just like in TT. I don't make my players walk around the city or travel in rounds.
Other players in non-combat mode would see the characters in combat mode and could have the option of joining the combat or not, and the characters in combat mode could have the option of excluding the character trying to join combat.
And that would just be for random encounters, such as when you travel or roam around. For the instanced dungeons or play areas there would be certain areas that automatically put you in combat mode, depending on the challenges of the dungeon, traps, locked items, monsters, etc.
Sort of like a reverse of Total War - combat or challenges in turns, non-combat or non-challenges in real time.
Bad, PFO is looking at not just parties adventuring together but actual battlefields where combattents can gain buffs/advantages by their formation.
I'm talking about a phalanx of twelve heavy infantry hitting their line backed by twenty-four medium infantry to exploit the breach, or light infantry rolling up their right flank while the shieldwall holds the attention of the line, forcing the enemy to commit his reserves against infilading archers in the tree line.
He would have to send in the sorcerers.
We aren't just talking about Pockets O'Neel lifting your purse and contemplating your throat: we are also talking real PvP the way it should be done.
Even then there are to be real economic/social/religious reasons for such a war because there are people in that blockaded settlement and the children are starving in there.
We're talking about struggles between nations in order to secure a trade route or protect valuable resources.
This isn't just six people sitting around a table. We are talking hundreds, and thousands of people.
Maybe this all seems blase to a guy like you, but to a simple man like me it is exciting to contemplate.
While that certainly is an exciting pitch, it still doesn't change the fact that it isn't Pathfinder. It is a different game. Maybe I would buy that game or maybe not, but that is definately not what I am requesting and talking about. I like Pathfinder and want to play more of it. I like the forty year old idea of a small adventuring party taking on the evil (or good) challenges of the world. I don't want to be a cog in someone else's army. Slapping a logo on the game you are describing (which seems like much more of a time suck-type game than a casual player like me would ever be prepared to invest in) doesn't make it PF. That's fine if you want to play that game, I just think there is a significant market share out there that is more like me. I want to hop on, play for an hour or two a couple times a week in the closest dungeon with the closest other players or guildmembers using the rules-set I enjoy and that I think many, many other people would enjoy. And the best part is, I would pay exactly the same amount per month that someone who played non-stop for three weeks would pay, which is ultimately what all of this is all about.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Nothing wrong with what you're asking for, and who says it won't be developed down the road sometime? I'm not interested in that type of game and am only looking for a great sandbox MMORPG in a rich fantasy setting, PFO fits that bill. Doesn't NWN fit the niche you're looking for? I don't believe there is as much a demand for such a game out there and it likely wouldn't support a subscription model.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There's no commercially viable market of players that can be sustained in a game that turns you into a demigod in 6 days.
World of Warcraft does it. Back when I was still playing (around February), most people expected you to hit the level cap in about a week and some could do that in a weekend.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Mr Dancey thank you for coming onto these forums. You mentioned hard core gamers playing 8 hours a day.
I do have a question....maybe a silly question. How can people afford to play 8 hours a day? I mean arn't there real world responsibilities such as home work and sports, family, and well employment? a career? so how can people play 8 hours a day with out the game consuming their entire waking time?
perhaps this is a silly question.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Mr Dancey thank you for coming onto these forums. You mentioned hard core gamers playing 8 hours a day.
I do have a question....maybe a silly question. How can people afford to play 8 hours a day? I mean arn't there real world responsibilities such as home work and sports, family, and well employment? a career? so how can people play 8 hours a day with out the game consuming their entire waking time?
perhaps this is a silly question.
Fairly easily. Working a 9-5 job is 8 hours of your day. Assume a 30 minute commute. 9 hours expended. 8 Hours of gameplay, 17 hours. You now have 7 hours to sleep, read, eat, etc. Its a bit crazy and leaves you short on sleep, but it is quite doable.
|
CEO, Goblinworks
|
@ElyasRavenwood - one thing I learned at CCP: For some people, MMOs are more meaningful than real life. In the MMO they get all the needs on the hierarchy except food & shelter. They literally organize their lives around being in the game,
Maybe they're physically disabled. Maybe they're socially awkward. Maybe they're somewhere they can't do much else (lighthouse duty anyone?). Maybe they work or go to school in an environment where they can easily multi-task and play at the same time. Maybe they're just really hard core. Whatever the reasons, a non-trivial number of players will be in the game almost continuously.
This is one of the aspects of MMOs that kind of blow up a lot of otherwise sound game designs. The dedication and intensity of the players runs the gamut from a couple of hours on a lazy Saturday to virtually unlimited game time, but the design has to be rewarding and interesting to both ends of that spectrum.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
While that certainly is an exciting pitch, it still doesn't change the fact that it isn't Pathfinder. It is a different game. Maybe I would buy that game or maybe not, but that is definately not what I am requesting and talking about. I like Pathfinder and want to play more of it. I like the forty year old idea of a small adventuring party taking on the evil (or good) challenges of the world. I don't want to be a cog in someone else's army. Slapping a logo on the game you are describing (which seems like much more of a time suck-type game than a casual player like me would ever be prepared to invest in) doesn't make it PF. That's fine if you want to play that game, I just think there is a significant market share out there that is more like me. I want to hop on, play for an hour or two a couple times a week in the closest dungeon with the closest other players or guildmembers using the rules-set I enjoy and that I think many, many other people would enjoy. And the best part is, I would pay exactly the same amount per month that someone who played non-stop for three weeks would pay, which is ultimately what all of this is all about.
What you are asking for is PFRPG on the computer, not an MMO, which I would love to see made mind you. But to say PFO is not Pathfinder loses sight of everything Pathfinder encompasses. There's a LOT more to it than the rules-set, and it's still Pathfinder without the rules-set. The lore and mythology PF is rich and lasting beyond the PFRPG mechanics.
Fairly easily. Working a 9-5 job is 8 hours of your day. Assume a 30 minute commute. 9 hours expended. 8 Hours of gameplay, 17 hours. You now have 7 hours to sleep, read, eat, etc. Its a bit crazy and leaves you short on sleep, but it is quite doable.Mr Dancey thank you for coming onto these forums. You mentioned hard core gamers playing 8 hours a day.
I do have a question....maybe a silly question. How can people afford to play 8 hours a day? I mean arn't there real world responsibilities such as home work and sports, family, and well employment? a career? so how can people play 8 hours a day with out the game consuming their entire waking time?
perhaps this is a silly question.
Some people like me are incapable of sleeping more then 4 hours a day, if they can sleep at all. I average 8 hours of game time on my free days, any other day im putting in at least four a day. now during busy times of the year i might not log on at all for a few days on end because i work 16 hour shifts, or i'm getting loads of over time and no days off. but thats typicaly only during spring break. rest of the year im always on this computer.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Maybe they're physically disabled. Maybe they're socially awkward.
I first got into Everquest when I was a teenager, and have been playing MMOs since. When I first started thinking about what it meant to be a part of a virtual world, I started noticing that most of the people that I meant in the various virtual worlds are people I would never have met in the Real World.
Personally, I have found that the inhabitants of virtual worlds are incredibly diverse and that especially the persons that Ryan describes above are disproportianately represented. Particularly in those games which have been recognized as having particularly 'good' or accepting communities (for instance, I didn't feel this way about WoW, with it's mass-appeal).
In a virtual world, you are quite literally reborn. Not only that, but this time, you determine the nature of your birth. You dictate every aspect of your life, from social interactions to your very appearance, starting at conception. You are judged not by how you look, how you sound/speak, who your parents are, how you've acted in the past, nor by your current social relations. The anonymity of it allows you to be judged by your actions in the world.
In EQ, EQII, Vanguard, and Lord of the Rings Online, many if not MOST of my meaningful, long-term relationships in those games were with persons that eventually confided in me that they were mentally or physically impaired. Many of them could not work and lived off of disability payments. Perhaps they were looking for a way to engage with persons socially on equal footing with those they engaged with. Perhaps they were looking to do something with their time that they could find meaning in.
I have a profound respect for the power of virtual worlds in affecting individuals' lives and society in general.
...I sometimes wonder what percent of Fortune 500 CEOs would be over 6ft tall if boardrooms were virtual spaces?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As a bit of an aside, there is Knights of the Chalice, a single player game that supposedly hews close to the 3.5 OGL ruleset (haven't really played it myself but did download a demo of it a long time ago).
Who'd get to be DM?