ok, so long story short i've played many rpgs before (to include D&D 3.5) and i've done ALOT of research into this new character i'm making. however i also want this toon to blow away my GM. were starting the campaign at lvl 10 and we've been given unlimited build capability as long as its in a paizo book. that being said i've used the core rulebook, the advanced race guide, and the advanced players guide to create this character.
the concept is a sneak archer who plays always from the shadows and prefers to always hide and attack from the shadows.
race: Fetchling (primary setup, without the CR adjustment)
class: 6 lvls of Dust Stalker (ranger archetype for fetchling)
4 lvls of Sniper (rogue archtype from advanced players guide)
will be taking shadowdancer as next level advancement
the idea is that i will be maximizing my sneak attack by always attacking from hide with a bow that has the ability to hit with sneak attack through combat, cover, concealment, etc. at a distance greater then 30ft.
skills: acrobatics, perception and stealth are maximised of course. the rest of the skills are prety evenly distributed.
feats:
racial feats: Shadow Blending; Shadowy Resistance; Gloom Shimmer
dust stalker: Shadow Guide; Shadow Bond
ranger: Favored Enemy (undead); Track; Favored Terrain (underground); Favored Enemy (monsterous Humanoid); point blank shot; rapid shot; precise shot; Endurance
Sniper: Accuracy; Deadly Range; Snipers Eye; Snap Shot
rogue: Sneak attack 2d6; Evasion
level feats: Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow); Dodge; Improved Initiative; Improved Precise Shot; Quick Draw.
after all adjustments have been made my stats are as follows:
STR 18
DEX 22
CON 18
INT 13
WIS 17
CHA 16
(the base numbers were rolled with an extra dice and lowest number dropped. so yes, they are quite high.)
we were told that we could have 3 magic items at start as long as the EL was not rediculus, so i went with the following 3: +1 Flaming Composite Longbow of Endless Arrows; Catskin Leather armor; and a Glove of Storing.
the glove of storing will house my bow when not in use and keep me from having to drop it when i am forced to switch to my greatsword for melee.
thats my character in a nutshell. really i just want opinions and some advice on a few things.
firstly, what is the best way for a rogue to utilize battlefield control to get a sneak attack? obviously stun/daze would be the best idea but i'm finding that the only real way to get any abilities that would give me these is to crossclass again into sorcerer/wizard which i would like not to do.
secondly is more of a playstyle question: should i go with a tragic backstory for a male toon who is a vampire hunter seeking revenge, or a female seductress who wants to take advantage or every man she sees for her own personal gain? both will have a similar backstory as to why they became adventurers, but the way i play them will be much different.
also just so you know. the group will consist of 8 to 10 people.
This will help you out a lot when you can't get the conditions.
Since you threaten with a bow with snapshot, and later imp. snapshot, you can ask your DM if that also means that you can now flank with allies. two issues you said you wanted to do it from distance, but you have more tan enough con to beef up your already decently good HP.
Also, sniper goggles, the greater version, will allow you to use your SA from a greater distance, and if within the 30' range, you get +2 dmg per SA die.
Efficient quiver is a must, and I assume this character has no problem using poison arrows. Since you have a decent INT score, put a few ranks, at least 5, in Craft alchemy. Now make your own poisons, and also purchase for faster crafting the Amazing Tools of Manufacture to help you out. Make your arrows do more than damage. Your playing from shadow, so poison use is of no concern to you really. If you have a problem with poisoning yourself, use Black Finger Paste. And woundweal, even though a poison is not listed with them, neither is spellscorch, from Advanced race guide.
Quickly back to the efficient quiver. Since your dm has no issue with what you use really, have someone cast or a crafter in when purchasing your efficient quiver, put the Abundant Ammunition spell in it. Your better off doing that, and stretching out the use of your varied arrows than getting a typical non-masterwork arrow that the endless ammunition enchantment provides. It will cost you more, but that's not a huge issue, when half the time, or more, your non-magical arrows will be crafted by you.
firstly, what is the best way for a rogue to utilize battlefield control to get a sneak attack? obviously stun/daze would be the best idea but i'm finding that the only real way to get any abilities that would give me these is to crossclass again into sorcerer/wizard which i would like not to do.
secondly is more of a playstyle question: should i go with a tragic backstory for a male toon who is a vampire hunter seeking revenge, or a female seductress who wants to take advantage or every man she sees for her own personal gain? both will have a similar backstory as to why they became adventurers, but the way i play them will be much different.
also just so you know. the group will consist of 8 to 10 people.
Quickly, your main points are about how to best get use out of Sneak Attack.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
The feat False Opening can help a bit with dex loss for enemies.
Also, conditions as you stated stunned and dazed help, but also, blinded, flat footed (which if you act before the enemies do, they haven't acted yet, and are thus flat footed. They lose their dex to AC unless they have combat reflexes, or uncanny dodge). Also, helpless, invisible (which is a good way to deny them dex), and paralyzed, and pinned.
How you play them is up to you. Both of them sound good, but I favor the revenge-y male character.
ok, so long story short i've played many rpgs before (to include D&D 3.5) and i've done ALOT of research into this new character i'm making. however i also want this toon to blow away my GM. were starting the campaign at lvl 10 and we've been given unlimited build capability as long as its in a paizo book. that being said i've used the core rulebook, the advanced race guide, and the advanced players guide to create this character.
the concept is a sneak archer who plays always from the shadows and prefers to always hide and attack from the shadows.
** spoiler omitted **...
I have an absolutely killer archer build, but its nothing like the one that you've done so much work on so I'm not going to clutter up the thread by posting it here unless you want me to.
It would blow away your GM though, I can promise you that, and be about twice as effective as what you're putting together there. Having said that, I've always valued concept over optimization, so if you love your idea stick with it - I have no doubt whatsoever that he/she will be fun to play.
As a side note, that is a huge, huge group. I'd be seriously tempted to break it up into two gaming groups - a single combat will either be over in a half a round or will literally take an entire evening. I wish you luck, though.
I pity your GM. Managing a group of 4 is bad enough. 8-10 makes me want to hide under the bed.
As to your character: cool idea, but not sure how well it'll play. With those stats and that level of magic goodies, I think you should be able to make pretty much any character blow things away, but assuming that everyone in the party is about equal.
1. You're going to be dependent on the melee fighters to get your sneak attacks set up. This might be frustrating. Pathfinder doesn't like ranged sneak attacks, for good reason, IMO. Still, archers are nearly always dependent on meat shields.
2. Be the male character.
I pity your GM. Managing a group of 4 is bad enough. 8-10 makes me want to hide under the bed.
As to your character: cool idea, but not sure how well it'll play. With those stats and that level of magic goodies, I think you should be able to make pretty much any character blow things away, but assuming that everyone in the party is about equal.
1. You're going to be dependent on the melee fighters to get your sneak attacks set up. This might be frustrating. Pathfinder doesn't like ranged sneak attacks, for good reason, IMO. Still, archers are nearly always dependent on meat shields.
2. Be the male character.
That was kind of my concern - when it comes to actual playability the player is going to have to wait for his 'kill shots' to get set up, perhaps a round or two, and with that many players that's a lot of time doing pretty much nothing.
The chief benefits of pretty much any kind of archer character are twofold - being able to deal damage without putting yourself at much risk and having access to full attack actions pretty much all the time... and you want those iterative attacks to come as soon as possible and have the highest chance to hit, which is why a full BAB class is usually the best place to start.
I would never tell anyone not to play a character they think they will enjoy, but I suspect that when it comes to actual play, this particular build won't be enjoyed as much as the player thinks it will.
thank you all for the advice. to clarify a few things tho: when i said sniper i didn't actually mean i would be using the sniping technique all the time. that particular rule will only be used when its absolutely nessesary i cant be seen. my plan is to utilize my 50% miss chance granted by my racial talent while in dim or dark lighting to never get hit while still using full attacks.
also, i'm fully aware that the grp size is insane. but i've played a grp this large before and we've had alot of fun with it. we try to make our turns as quick as possible and as long as everyone is planning what there going to do while others act, it goes fast.
i'm not too keen on changing the character so much as i about optimizing the current build. the grp size alone gives me a great excuse to have a terrible BAB. its more about playing it then efficiency. that being said, i also dont want to be stuck unable to help my friends when they need me.
the efficient quiver idea is already something i'd been considering but it was a choice between that or the glove of storing to start with and the glove is more tied to character design. i fully intend on getting the quiver asap. the poison arrows i actually didn't think about. its a great idea. i hadent even put any points into poison use. now i think i need to rethink my skills setup.
i have a +28 to stealth skill also, so hiding while in combat and even using sniping when i have to will never be an issue.
There are some cheesy ways to be almost always defacto invisible so you can use to setup sneak attack. You can for instance use smoke with the various ways of seeing through it (or lowering the concealment factor). That's probably going to annoy the DM though.
More flavourful and less cheesy would be (deeper) darkness combined with something like dark sight (although something without a range limitation would be better). If you can see your enemies from a region of darkness and they can't see you they are denied dex. Because of the "only two steps" limitation on (deeper) darkness this won't always work, so less likely to become an annoyance.
You don't really need it all the time either, at level 10 and in such a large party simply getting a greater invisibility cast on you shouldn't be too hard. With a summoner party member you can even use the spell storing weapon trick to cast it on yourself, since summoner has it as a level 3 spell.
i already have darkvision 60ft. and will be getting more as i advance in lvl.
using deeper darkness and darkness spells was one of my ideas for this character to begin with, but like i said in my OP i found that the only real way to acomplish this would be dabbling in sorc/wizard for the spells nessesary. asking my group members for things like that is not always a great idea since i really dont think many of them will be capable of utilizing utter darkness to their advantage like i will. its more of a situational setup where i become the main focus of combat when they are at a disadvantage in the dark and i am not. that way they alter their playstyle slightly to survive while i dominate the field and shine as the stalker that excels in darkness.
what book would i find shadow strike in? also can it be attained from a rogue talent since that is how i got snipers eye.
just looked at shadow strike in the advanced players guide.
there is no reason for me to take that feat since all it does it let me deal SA damage to enemies with concealment. but using improved precise shot i will never have to worry about it and will always get my SA on them anyway. its a useless feat imo.
I also would not get flaming on your bow, get seeking instead. Later on get distance so you get shot from even farther away. Add impervious to your bow to help with sunder.
your +5 seeking distance view with impervious, is only a +x total. perhaps get conserving, to help minimize special arrow losses, or holy if character will face evil enemies a lot. If not, called is a very handy enhancement.
Sniper’s Eye (Ex): A rogue with this talent can apply her
sneak attack damage on ranged attacks targeting foes
within 30 feet that benefit from concealment. Foes with
total concealment are still immune.
Shadow Strike (Ex): Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
the only difference here is perhaps the ability to use SA at a greater range, but since its stated elsewhere that SA can only be used at a range of 30ft anyway that argument is put to rest and makes shadow strike identical to snipers eye for that. also since i have deadly aim my SA range is increased to 50ft which is much more then anyone would ever use it at anyway.
all in all they are identical skills unless i have some other precision damage i'm trying to use, which i don't.
edit: the Improved precise shot feat ignores the miss chance and ac bonus for partial concealment so it makes landing the SA for either one of these abilities better. that being said it is not a replacement for, but instead a supplement for them.
I also would not get flaming on your bow, get seeking instead. Later on get distance so you get shot from even farther away. Add impervious to your bow to help with sunder.
your +5 seeking distance view with impervious, is only a +x total. perhaps get conserving, to help minimize special arrow losses, or holy if character will face evil enemies a lot. If not, called is a very handy enhancement.
flaming is on the bow for the purpose of making up for the damage i will lose by NOT always getting a sneak attack (plus it adds to the vampire hunter backstory since they dont like fire)
seeking is a good idea but not something essential to have since i bypass most cover the enemy will take anyway.
distance is not nessesary at all since i have a talent that doubles my ranged increment for my bow from 110ft to 220ft. anything more is just overkill and basically puts my range farther out then my character can actually see. also most of my attacks will be from within 60ft anyway since that is optimal range for SA to be added as well.
conserving is a great one except that for right now the only ammo im using is the normal arrows being summoned by my bow (endless ammo). i'll add this to it once i get an efficient quiver and some poison arrows.
holy was my first choice since it tied well with the vampire hunter idea, but the problem with that is that its a useless enchantment on anything else where as flaming is good against anything that doesnt have a DR/fire or immunity.
called is utterly useless to this character since i have the glove of storing which pretty much replicates this enchantment.
There are way too many creatures and enemies that have fire resistance or immunity. Especially at your levels. Your better off with holy, since evil will come out more often than a a fire target creature. Seeking overlaps partially with imp. Precise shot, but not all of it. However, if for roleplaying style you want flaming, no problem. Be sure to ask your DM if the damage from the flaming ability would be enough to ignite things on fire, if ignitable. Like loose wood, hay, oils, so forth. If they say yes, this is loads more useful than originally er wives, if not, not big deal, ways around this.
Instead of endless ammunition your better off just using normal arrows that are specialized, save that +1 for conserving I guess.
Glove of storing is great for you in this case. But later on called might be need because in case you ever lose contact with your bow, just call it back.
There are dozens of arrows besides poison ones to purchase/ craft yourself, smoke arrows, obscuring mist arrows, thistle, smokestick, whistling, thistle + wound weal applied, razor filament, broad head, so forth.
Pinkey, i assume what you mean is that deadly aim makes the SA range for shadow strike 50ft and not for snipers eye. correct? if thats not what you meant then by your words snipers eye would have a +10 range over shadow strike....
Grizzly, you make a valid point here. and yes holy fits better for my vampire hunter backstory but i am hoping for the ignitable stuff idea. if not i might change to unholy. you are quite correct (now that i think about it) that much more baddies have an immunity to fire then anything else. and acid would be great except that i dont recall seeing it as a weapon enchantment for ranged weapons. ill have to look again.
and im kinda stuck with endless since i had to bribe my DM to get it anyway. he said no more then +2 enchantment and i conned him into a total of 3 since its just for endless ammo. (argument was that it made the whole counting ammo issue easier for the both of us by just not having to do it)
however later on o do plan on grabbing some specific ammo for different situations.
the concept is a sneak archer who plays always from the shadows and prefers to always hide and attack from the shadows.
Might I suggest Ranger8/Pal2 continuing with ranger from then on?
I don't see the ranger archetype you picked as being helpful. And the rogue levels for just 2d6 sneak aren't all that useful either.
Pick up hide in plain sight at 11th via the sorcerer shadow bloodline. Also pick up Hellcat stealth along the way.
-James
Shadow Bond (Su): When a dusk stalker is fighting in dim light or darkness (magical or otherwise), he gains a +4 insight bonus on Acrobatics checks made to move through an enemy’s threatened area or through its space. Furthermore, a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom modifier, the dusk stalker can manipulate shadows in a 5-foot square within 30 feet. That square must be in an
area of dim light or darkness (magical or otherwise). Enemieswith an Intelligence score within or adjacent to that 5-foot
square take a –2 penalty to AC and on Ref lex saving throws.
The harassing shadows last for 1 round. This is a mindaffecting
fear effect.
Shadow Blending (Su): Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.
this is why the archetype is useful. also its more about being a sneak ranger as a playstyle versus optimization. im well aware that paladin is a better road to go down, but im not going to be playing a LG character by any means, so inevitably im gonna end up losing my paladin abilities by doing some dastardly deed or breaking the law.
hid in plain sight at lvl 11 anyway with Shadowdancer at lvl 11 anyway and shadowdancer again fits more the the playstyle then a sorcerer.
your idea would be a good one if it wernt for the fact that hiding and sneaking are key points to how im going to play. thanks for the advice tho.
i'll definately make that change then since i didn't see that little bit of gimpness there. and yes shadow in the name is a big plus since almost ever skill/feat/talent i have has shadow in it.
as far as the rod of shadows goes. he'd let me have it if i got rid of something else, which i dont plan to since i like everything i've got, but i'll add it to my list of "crap i still need" along with specific arrows, efficient quiver, and sniper goggles.
thanks pinky
ok, so i've made a couple of changes to the character and i think im ready for play.
firstly, i removed quickdraw as a feat and replaced it with Shadow Walker which is a fetchling on feat that lets me use a dimention door spell (from lim-light/darkness to dim-light/darkness only) in place of my shadow walk spell like ability i get once per day. this makes me a teleporting ranker (i love it).
i decided on a female seductress as a gender and play style.
i changed Sniper's Eye to Shadow Strike as per Pinky's suggestion.
and lastly i found a nice little non-magical piece of equipment i plan to hang from my belt and use for fights that changes the light level down one increment so that my character is almost ALWAYS in dim or lower light so that i get all my awsome shadowy goodness all the time. as well as some flasks that can be thrown at an enemy who doesnt have darkvison that makes them blinded due to being in darkness thus allowing me to sneak attack much more often. the items are listed below in case anyone is wondering.
Darklight Lantern: This lantern does not burn oil, but
instead burns shadowcloy (see below). When shadowcloy
is used as its fuel, this lantern creates a strange, hazy
darkness that decreases the light level for 30 feet around
it by one step (Core Rulebook 172). Unlike when shadowcloy
is thrown at a single target, this haze does not decrease
natural darkness to supernatural darkness. One f lask of
shadowcloy fuels a darklight lantern for 1 minute.
Shadowcloy: This thin black liquid is stored in airtight
f lasks because it evaporates quickly when exposed to air.
Its cloying vapors cling to a target, obscuring vision for
a short period of time. You can throw a shadowcloy f lask
as a splash weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. A
direct hit means the target treats the ambient light as
one category darker than normal (Core Rulebook 172),
with a creature already in natural darkness treating it
as supernatural darkness. This effect lasts for 1 round.
A thrown shadowcloy f lask has no effect on adjacent
creatures or if it misses.
Shadow Bond (Su): When a dusk stalker is fighting in dim light or darkness (magical or otherwise), he gains a +4 insight bonus on Acrobatics checks made to move through an enemy’s threatened area or through its space. Furthermore, a number of times per day equal to his Wisdom modifier, the dusk stalker can manipulate shadows in a 5-foot square within 30 feet. That square must be in an
area of dim light or darkness (magical or otherwise). Enemies
with an Intelligence score within or adjacent to that 5-foot
square take a –2 penalty to AC and on Ref lex saving throws.
The harassing shadows last for 1 round. This is a mindaffecting
fear effect.Not see how this is something that you want to build for here. If it's 'ooh cool flavor' maybe, but I don't see it doing much, or being of much help here.
Shadow Blending (Su): Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.this is why the archetype is useful.
This is not part of the archetype, but rather racial.. right?
im well aware that paladin is a better road to go down, but im not going to be playing a LG character by any means, so inevitably im gonna end up losing my paladin abilities by doing some dastardly deed or breaking the law.
If Paladin doesn't fit, then it doesn't fit. I take it anti-paladin wouldn't fit either? Just with that insanely high a CHA as a fetchling it seems a shame not to shore up your saves if possible.
Your call here, but I saw having parts of the Shadow bloodline as *very* appropriate here. Rather than Dodge, Mobility, and Combat...
also its more about being a sneak ranger as a playstyle versus optimization. ...hid in plain sight at lvl 11 anyway with Shadowdancer at lvl 11 anyway and shadowdancer again fits more the the playstyle then a sorcerer.
shadow bond is a great ability that reduces the enemy's AC as well as giving it a fear effect which makes it vulnerable to sneak attacks.
shadow blending is racial yes, so i dont need to worry about losing it. correct.
yes anti-paladin wouldnt fit either since im not CE. but yes, my CHA is high, although in all reality it needs to be switched with my INT since CHA is supposed to be my dump stat and nothing i use is CHA based. this would also allow me to do as you suggested and go Sorcerer (shadow bloodline) later in the future.
the reason i took sniper rogue archetype was for the ranged talents it gives as well as the 2d6 sneak attack which i like to have. but you are correct in that if i went 4 lvls in sorc instead i would have more benifit untility wise, but would it make up for the loss in damage what i take from losing sneak attack what i've built the entire character around?
if you think sorcerer is better then rogue, then maybe ill look at changing it around some...
and no, i dont plan on dealing with the traps.
you don't need to bold it around SA. just hiding and shooting from stealth. the sneak attack us so low in side, and do much us going into it trying to optimize it by a small margin, your better off not being it. if you want it, perhaps the vivisectionist alchemist.
ok, so if i were to change from rogue 4 to sorcerer 4 these would be the changes:
i would lose:
1 BAB
3 reflex save (while only gaining 2 in will save)
accuracy
deadly range
shadow strike
snap shot
sneak attack 2d6
evasion
i would gain:
the above mentioned 2 will save
bloodline power - Shadow Strike
eschew materials
cantrips
ray of enfeeblment bonus spell
bloodline power - nighteye
6 first lvl spells and 3 2nd lvl spells of my choice. (+ however many bonus spells i get per lvl for high CHA)
i dont see where i get hide in plain sight from this bloodline as you mentioned before. also this route will cost me an attack on my full attack since it will drop my BAB down to 9 and the uneven change in saving throws is kind of harsh considering the idea is to not get hit.
the shadow strike bloodline power is nice, but unless i can cast this as a ranged touch attack with my bow its not that great except for a means to get away without provoking AoO. nighteye would extend my darkvision by 30ft which is nice, but there are other ways of doing the same thing later with my current build. ray of enfeeblement isn't all that great to begin with unless the situation deems i need to nerf enemy STR which wouldn't benefit me much since i dont plan to be hit.
admittedly i like the idea of replacing rogue with sorcerer, but in doin so im losing alot of abilities that augment my ranger skills and gaining spells in their place which just makes combat longer for me. (which is going to be long enough wit ha party of 10). it would essentialy double my turns needed to kill something.
this sorcerer type would be better suited to a sorc/rogue build instead of a sorc/ranger build.
you don't need to bold it around SA. just hiding and shooting from stealth. the sneak attack us so low in side, and do much us going into it trying to optimize it by a small margin, your better off not being it. if you want it, perhaps the vivisectionist alchemist.
you're right that i shouldn't build around SA, but really SA is an accent to my damage that i get due to playstyle. more or less its a bonus. thats why im not too upset that its not higher. the current build maximizes the amount of ranged skills/bonuses that i can get while staying inside my playstyle. if there were a way to get more band for my buck while still shooting from the shadows then by all means let me know, but i'm not seeing it.
what i meant by building around SA is that now that i have it im looking for ways to maximize how often i can use it.
You misunderstood I wasn't suggesting levels in sorcerer, but rather feats (Eldritch Heritage) that would give you some of the shadow bloodline powers.-James
using sorcerer feats without taking lvls in it would be worse since that subtracts from what i already have. besides the only thing i really liked from that bloodline was the shadow touch bloodline ability.
ok, so long story short i've played many rpgs before (to include D&D 3.5) and i've done ALOT of research into this new character i'm making. however i also want this toon to blow away my GM. were starting the campaign at lvl 10 and we've been given unlimited build capability as long as its in a paizo book. that being said i've used the core rulebook, the advanced race guide, and the advanced players guide to create this character.
the concept is a sneak archer who plays always from the shadows and prefers to always hide and attack from the shadows.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, first of all: generally here in Paizoland we often don't care for PC's being called "toons" we don't consider them disposable.
Next, under the RAW, Stealth or HIPS does NOT make your foe lose his Dex, thus it does not give you Sneak attack. Only Invisibility does. Really, check out the last Stealth blog where they were considering re-doing Stealth and Perception, etc.
True, it does seem to be RAI, and many DM's allow it, but many don't.
ok, so long story short i've played many rpgs before (to include D&D 3.5) and i've done ALOT of research into this new character i'm making. however i also want this toon to blow away my GM. were starting the campaign at lvl 10 and we've been given unlimited build capability as long as its in a paizo book. that being said i've used the core rulebook, the advanced race guide, and the advanced players guide to create this character.
the concept is a sneak archer who plays always from the shadows and prefers to always hide and attack from the shadows.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, first of all: generally here in Paizoland we often don't care for PC's being called "toons" we don't consider them disposable.
Next, under the RAW, Stealth or HIPS does NOT make your foe lose his Dex, thus it does not give you Sneak attack. Only Invisibility does. Really, check out the last Stealth blog where they were considering re-doing Stealth and Perception, etc.
True, it does seem to be RAI, and many DM's allow it, but many don't.
i've read the threads. this is not a PFS same, so its all about house rules. im almost certain my DM will alow it, if not, then thats why i've been looking for other means to make enemy's flat-footed.
also, along that argument about hidden vs. invisible - from the enemy's point of view, if i can not see my attacker because he is invisible and thus suffer a penalty then if my attacker is hiding from me and i still cant see him, then shouldn't i also suffer the same penalty? either way im at the same disadvantage.
i don't write the rules, but logic is the number one rule in any d20 PnP RPG, isn't it?
Next, under the RAWLanguage, is not math ... very rarely the rules are hammered down enough to even pretend there is such a thing as RAW other than in the literal sense. Here is no different, among other things the invisibility condition equals (ie. not contains, but equals) visually undetectable. This gives plenty of wiggleroom for both views.
That's true. But the blogs make it very clear that the RAW does NOT allow stealth to give your sneak attack. Mind you, they also make it clear that Paizo would like to change the RAW so that it does. Unfortunately, that opened up too many cans of worms.
So, if you want to go for RAI, it's perfectly Ok.
either way DM fiat overules everything laid down in the rulebooks. this rule alone clearly states that the DM has the power to allow or outlaw using things like sneak attack from hide based on nothing other then his interpretation of the wording or simply making a ruling to help ease the playing of the game for everyone.
that being said, my DM is probably going to allow me the use of SA from hide. and even if he doesn't, i am fully aware that i wont always be able to use my sneak attack all the time. that is why i've been looking for ways to optimize its use by other means. ultimately i'm trying to find ways to deny dex by means of spells or spell like abilities as much as possible.
that is really what this thread was supposed to be about: ways to maximize using what i already have built into this character, not change the playstyle or original build.
I as far as damage... I as gm don't care about 2d6 dice of sneak attack that at best will be 6 times per round at best...
I would stay rouge not Sorcer for skills and stuff.
I would look at Eldritch Heritage (shadow blood line) chain for flavor.
You could have darkvision out to 120 ft. 60 ft Race + 30 ft feat + 30 ft shadow dancer.
im gonna have to look at this Eldritch Heritage thing. is it a feat i can take with combat trick rogue talent?
Edit ok, just looked at Eldritch Heritage, its not an option for me since i dont meet the requirements. specifically "Skill Focus in Bloodline skill"
i get that. but how am i supposed to replace dodge, mobility, and combat reflexes when i only have dodge....i suppose i could replace dodge with skill focus but then i'd still be taking eldtritch heritage for the first time at lvl 11. also how would i get hide in plain sight from eldritch heritage? its not in the shadow bloodline, neither is shadow jump.
you'r right. i never saw that, but Shadow Well would be an amazing replacement for HiPS. also, i originally planned to have all three of those feats in original build, but removed combat reflexes and mobility after reading a guide on rangers and rogues and learned that they really arn't needed for what im trying to do.
i just was looking at something...what do you guys think about replacing all 6 levels of ranger with 6 levels of fighter instead? i would lose my shadow bond and favored enemies/terrain, but would replace them with 3 extra feats to start with....opinions? i would pretty much be able to take all the flavor adding stuff you guys have been suggesting.
This will not help you, since your GM is limiting your choices to options found in Paizo book only, but IMO, the best option for creating a sniper is the Yabusame (samurai archetype) from Way of the Samurai by Rite Publishing. You can find the full build on d20pfsrd.com
Tell your GM to allow Rite Publishing 3PP Pathfinder material and everything will fall into place...
ok, here is a revised list of feats and talents my character now has after changing her from 6 ranger/4 rogue to 4 rogue/6 fighter. let me know what you think.
racial
Shadow blending
shadowy resistance
Sniper (Rogue arctype)
accuracy
sneak attack 2d6
evasion
deadly range
point blank shot
snap shot
Level Feats
skill focus (stealth)
Eldritch heritage (Shadow - Shadow Strike)
Shadow Walker
Improved Initiative
Eldritch Heritage (Shadow - Shadow Well)
Fighter
Bravery +2
Armor Training +1
Weapon Training +1
Combat Feats
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Improved Snap Shot
this new set up cam at the cost of ALOT of skill points , but i was able to rework those to still keep what i needed maxed. i think it works out much better for me.
i am aware that i can now wear heavy armor, but i will be keeping with the original design in that aspect for now in that i'm still wearing leather.
shadow well is a 9th level bloodline ability. i qualify for it.
and nowhere in the rogue talent definition does it say that combat trick can not be taken more then once. so long as i'm not taking the same feat multiple times, i see no reason not to take it with every rogue talent.
either way, i used combat trick to take shadow strike feat and snap shot is a sniper archetype rogue talent, so i dont need to take combat trick to get it....
Don't forget gloves of dueling for your now upgraded fighter.