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Hello,
I have a tripper fighter and she uses a scimitar. Scimitar is not a "trip" weapon. (but you can trip an opponent with any weapon)
I heard that you cann add Weapon bonuses (like +1 Scimitar), Bless (+1 attack) or Inspire Courage (+1 attack) on your CMB when you try to trip/disarm etc your opponent.
Is that true?
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
A combat maneuver check is an attack roll. All applicable bonuses apply.
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I think the trip quality lets you do other maneuvers like drag or reposition - as per the FAQ/errata under weapon qualities;
"Editor's Note: The trip special feature also allows you to add the weapon's enhancement bonus when using drag or reposition combat maneuvers, as shown below:
"There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons)."
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Ok, so, whereas normally you'd drag or reposition as a non-weapon maneuver (like Bull Rush or Grapple), you could instead perform the maneuver using a Trip weapon using its features and bonuses. But when it comes to normal tripping, you don't require a trip weapon, the trip weapon just gives you an added option for hard fail.
i believe that sums it up nicely
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When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.A combat maneuver check is an attack roll. All applicable bonuses apply.
I might be wrong but....by what your saying I could use my +5 net to help with my Bull Rush. Sound a little off to me. Plus this part of your quote(These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.) makes we wonder....
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I was completely wrong on this but this is the way I feel it should work.
It makes since to me that weapons designed to help in certin situations add their bonuses, while weapons not designed to help shouldnt add their bonuses. Example: masterwork dagger used to sunder a great axe...should you really get that +1 to attack added on a sunder attempt?
Pathfinder believes you should by this FAQ statement:
Note: This is a revision of this FAQ entry based on a Paizo blog about combat maneuvers with weapons. The previous version of this FAQ stated that using a trip weapon was the only way you could apply weapon enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus bonuses, and other such bonuses to the trip combat maneuver roll. The clarification in that blog means any weapon used to trip applies these bonuses when making a trip combat maneuver, so this FAQ was updated to omit the "only trip weapons let you apply these bonuses" limitation.
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11
Not sure what blog he's talking about but I guess it really convinced them at Paizo.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Not sure what blog he's talking about but I guess it really convinced them at Paizo.
Not a blog that "convinced" Paizo, a blog that Paizo wrote.
In short:
Bonuses that apply to all your attacks (like bless or Inspire Courage) apply to all your combat maneuvers too.
Bonuses that are "weapon-specific" (like Weapon Focus or Fighter Weapon Training or a weapon's enhancement bonus) only apply if you're performing a maneuver that uses a weapon. Normally this is just disarm, sunder and trip; but there can be other special cases as well.
Example: masterwork dagger used to sunder a great axe...should you really get that +1 to attack added on a sunder attempt?
Why wouldn't you? Masterwork means it's easier to hit stuff. Here, the "stuff" just happens to be an axe instead of a person.
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The way I see it they just diminished the weapon special for trip to nothing....why take a trip weapon now? Just in case you roll really bad? Get a tee-shirt or Character Record Folio for those times.
Hell, a disarm weapon gives a +2 circumstance bonus to disarm.
A trip weapon you can drop.....
I think you should use the right tool for the right job. I your tool isnt right for the job you should get a penalty and if your using the right tool you should get a bonus.
I guess I think a little reality in fantasy/RPG games.
The whole sunder with dagger was an extreme example.
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I think you should use the right tool for the right job. I your tool isnt right for the job you should get a penalty and if your using the right tool you should get a bonus.
I guess I think a little reality in fantasy/RPG games.
The whole sunder with dagger was an extreme example.
I find these 4 sentences hilarious together.
The "penalty" for using a dagger (masterwork or not) to sunder a greataxe is that you likely won't be able to get past its hardness.
Next time try grabbing a Maul of the Titans. You'll find that it'll be perfect for the job.
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One last rant from on this. Please hear me out.
This is from the core rule book 5th printing.
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
As per the RAW/FAQ the sentence in bold should be applied to all melee weapons, so has no special meaning being here. but I believe it should have meaning. Right tool for the job.
This is how I would have done things. Any of these option.
Non-trip melee weapon used to trip gets a -2 circumstance penalty. Trip weapons get no penalty.
or
Trip weapons give + 2 cirsumstance bonus to trip, just like the disarm weapons give a bonus.
or
Using a trip weapon does not provoke AoO even if you dont have Improved trip feat.
These option I think would have been better then the ability to trip the weapon on a bad trip attempt.
But thats just me. What do you guys think
Just in case you roll really bad? Get a tee-shirt or Character Record Folio for those times.
Yeah, that's why nobody ever takes Improved Iron Will. It's strictly inferior to t-shirts.
To make reposition an drag with a weapon.
Of course, that in turn raises the question: if you can already reposition with trip weapons, why does the Serpent Lash feat chain grant you the ability to reposition with whips (a trip weapon) at a -4 penalty?
that serpent slash seens like a good candidate for the wost feat ever thread by the way.
Serpent Lash isn't just the reposition thing - it also gives you a Cleave-like effect for tripping and disarming with whips. Not amazing, but not the Elephant Stomp territory it would be in if all it gave were the ability to reposition at a -4 penalty.
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Here are some quotes from Sean that I think SHOULD clear this all up, it at least clears it up for me.
Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge
Sep 16, 2011, 12:49 PM | Flag | List | FAQ | Reply
StabbittyDoom wrote:
To be honest, my main concern is the illogical nature of the consequences. If I were using a quarterstaff to disarm someone, I get bonuses from skill and magic. If I use it to trip, I don't. If I use it as an improvised trip weapon, I do. I fail to see how the last two scenarios are different, world-wise. Both of them involve using a weapon in a way that isn't intended, and the same way no less, but one has a different bonus pattern than the other.
I see what you're saying. I'd argue that we need to treat all of the weapons the same in that "not using it for its right purpose" shouldn't give the bonuses, which means at +5 dagger shouldn't give you its +5 to disarm checks or or to trip checks.
StabbittyDoom wrote:
I especially don't see how an enhancement bonus would fail to activate even though you *are* using the weapon (according to this ruling). Those bonuses always activate, even if you aren't using the weapon properly, so why does one improper use get bonuses and the other not?
Because a dagger's enhancement bonus makes it good for stabbing enemies, but not for disarming enemies, tripping enemies, or picking locks.
StabbittyDoom wrote:
It breaks the verisimilitude of my world, and I don't like that. You break that for the purpose of an unimportant rules nitpick and you've removed part of the fun for no good reason.
Yeah, I'm all about removing the fun.
StabbittyDoom wrote:
If you can trip with any weapon, you can trip with a simple reach weapon (longspear), and can thus trip at reach without needing a reach trip weapon. This is the balance consequence I referred to.
Why is tripping with a longspear a broken combo? If you fail by 10, you're tripped, and on his turn your enemy can step up and full attack your unarmed prone dirt-biting regretful self.
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Also, though you can say that the sentence in the trip property is not contradicted, it is CERTAINLY no longer necessary with this ruling.
There are many, many, many places in the rules where there is redundant wording.
StabbittyDoom wrote:
However, this still leaves a rule change in the Combat chapter that states that if you use a weapon for a maneuver you always get the relevant bonuses for that weapon.
Actually, I think you're referring to this text:
Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.
But it sounds like you're ignoring the very next sentence:
These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.So it's perfectly reasonable to not count a particular weapon's bonus if that doesn't apply to the maneuver you're attempting. Does a whip help you make a bull rush? No. Does a sap help you sunder? No. Does a spiked gauntlet help you steal? No.
What I get from these quotes is that you can use any weapon to trip but you dont get the bonuses from that weapon to add to your CMB trip attempt, unless its a trip weapon.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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What I get from these quotes is that you can use any weapon to trip but you dont get the bonuses from that weapon to add to your CMB trip attempt, unless its a trip weapon.
Incorrect.
If you follow that thread and read ALL of Sean K Reynolds' posts instead of just that one, you'll see that in that post (and some others) he was talking about how he thought things SHOULD work, even though (per the blog/FAQ) they're different.
For instance, he states at one point that he'd prefer if the trip quality granted a +2 bonus (to mirror the disarm quality), but got overruled by Jason. He also goes on to confirm that the trip quality literally makes you no more likely to succeed on a trip attempt than using a weapon that doesn't have that quality - a statement that would not be true if your interpretation was correct, Jacob.
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What I get from these quotes is that you can use any weapon to trip but you dont get the bonuses from that weapon to add to your CMB trip attempt, unless its a trip weapon.Incorrect.
If you follow that thread and read ALL of Sean K Reynolds' posts instead of just that one, you'll see that in that post (and some others) he was talking about how he thought things SHOULD work, even though (per the blog/FAQ) they're different.
For instance, he states at one point that he'd prefer if the trip quality granted a +2 bonus (to mirror the disarm quality), but got overruled by Jason. He also goes on to confirm that the trip quality literally makes you no more likely to succeed on a trip attempt than using a weapon that doesn't have that quality - a statement that would not be true if your interpretation was correct, Jacob.
I see what your saying and it would be nice to have all the relevent quotes together so we can see the whole picture.
And I agree with Sean about the +2 to trip for trip weapon, if nothing else give them that.
Sean and Jason or someone needs to clear this up, its been going on for close to 2 years now and is still VERY murky. Why have a trip special weapon feature if means nothing ( just being able to drop the weapon avaod a bad failure roll is nothing in my option) and I find it hard to believe that you can trip (from a static position) with a weapon not designed to trip. Yes you can trip with alot of different weapons if you can move around, but I find it hard to believe you can trip someone with a weapon that doesnt have flexability or a hook by just sticking it between your opponents legs.
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Here's the thing, All it would have taken to have all this make since would have been something like this;
"Trip weapons get a +2 circumstance bonus to trip CMBs." or "Trip weapons get a +2 bonus trip CMB's but not Drag and Repostion CMBs." or "Trip weapons get a +2 circumstance bonus to trip, drag and repostion CMBs."
Thats it...
But hey I'm only one player out of millions what does my opinion mean anyways.