Jawbreaker / Bonebreaker grant Stunning Fist save?

[Ravingdork]

Do targets of Jawbreaker, Bonebreaker, et al still get a save or is that forgone along with the normal effects of Stunning Fist?

Also, how do you make a stunning fist attack in a grapple?

[Kain Darkwind]

In a grapple, you are able to make an attack with any non-two handed weapon, that includes unarmed strikes.

I ran it that you get a save against stunning fist DC to negate the effects of Bone/Jawbreaker, but that ended up making the chain fairly weak. No save might be overpowered however.

[Ravingdork]

How do you maintain the grapple if you are busy making stunning fist attacks though?

[Nicos]

Ravingdork wrote:

How do you maintain the grapple if you are busy making stunning fist attacks though?

greater grapple.

[Ravingdork]

Except it's not even a prerequisite for the earlier feats. How do they expect you to use them?

[Nicos]

Ravingdork wrote:

Except it's not even a prerequisite for the earlier feats. How do they expect you to use them?

Jawbreaker works against stunned and helpless target too so you do not need to grapple, and it also works if somebody grappled you.

If yo want to start a grapple and use jawbreaker then you need greater grapple.

[Rathyr]

Why would they get a save? You use Bonebreaker/Jawbreaker AFTER a successful attempt, meaning they have already failed their save.

Stunning Pin is another option, besides Greater Grapple.

I just noticed that Neckbreaker doesnt say that it replaces the stunning fist effects, unlike the other two feats...

[Rathyr]

Also, keep in mind that an ally could have the enemy grappled, and you could just be attacking normally. You dont have to be the one grappling them for Jaw and Bone Breaker, only Neck.

[Ravingdork]

Rathyr wrote:

Why would they get a save? You use Bonebreaker/Jawbreaker AFTER a successful attempt, meaning they have already failed their save.

I kinda figured (hoped?) that they were referring to a successful attack roll, not a saving throw. After all, if you hit, you get your stunnning fist attempt as normal, right? Whether or not they get the save is as inconsequential for successful use of the power just as a spell's save is inconsequential when you successfully cast after a Concentration check.

[Kain Darkwind]

Ravingdork wrote:

How do you maintain the grapple if you are busy making stunning fist attacks though?

As a standard action while grappling, you can make a CMB check to deal damage equal to your unarmed strike. The feat doesn't lay out the specifics, but I would assume that it runs like follows.

Standard action successful check
Damage plus expend use of Stunning Fist
Save vs effect
Deal Neckbreaker damage if fail.

[Ravingdork]

Kain Darkwind wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

How do you maintain the grapple if you are busy making stunning fist attacks though?

As a standard action while grappling, you can make a CMB check to deal damage equal to your unarmed strike. The feat doesn't lay out the specifics, but I would assume that it runs like follows.

Standard action successful check
Damage plus expend use of Stunning Fist
Save vs effect
Deal Neckbreaker damage if fail.

I'm not so sure that's legal.

[Kain Darkwind]

Which part? The grapple rules state that you can deal unarmed damage with a successful grapple check made to maintain (not initiate) a grapple.

The rest is simply a breakdown of how things roll out from there, given the text of the Neckbreaker feat. Not a 'legal' or 'illegal' move suggested, simply an explanation of how it works based on what they tell you to do.

[Ravingdork]

I'm not sure that making a stunning fist attempt as part of a grapple check to maintain said grapple is legal.

[Kain Darkwind]

the breaker feat chain clearly allows you to do so, even if normal stunning fist does not.

[Ravingdork]

Where is the exception listed then?

[Kain Darkwind]

It isn't, Dork. Sometimes things don't spell out exactly how they work. But the alternate explanation, that stunning fist attacks are illegal to use with a successful grapple check to deal unarmed damage, thus rendering Neck/Jawbreaker pointless, is so obviously distant from any reasonable intent by the designers that it makes more sense to go with what I laid out, or some other explanation that allows the feat to function.

[Rathyr]

Ravingdork wrote:

Rathyr wrote:

Why would they get a save? You use Bonebreaker/Jawbreaker AFTER a successful attempt, meaning they have already failed their save.

I kinda figured (hoped?) that they were referring to a successful attack roll, not a saving throw. After all, if you hit, you get your stunnning fist attempt as normal, right? Whether or not they get the save is as inconsequential for successful use of the power just as a spell's save is inconsequential when you successfully cast after a Concentration check.

I think the wording of Stunning Pin and Stunning Fist suggests that the attempt is the save.

Stunning Fist "You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt)". I see this as an indication that the attack roll and "attempt" are two separate events. Hit with the attack? Get the "attempt" (Fort Save). Miss? No attempt.

Stunning Pin "Whenever you pin an opponent, you can spend a swift action to make a Stunning Fist attempt against that opponent.". Otherwise, you get a free UAS every time the word "attempt" pops up, and I dont think thats how it works.

[Rathyr]

Hrm. I'm torn.

I initially disagreed that you can use Stunning Fist anytime you deal damage in a Grapple, as there is a grapple feat specifically for that purpose. However, I read the mechanics in question a little closer. Stunning Fist just requires that you make an attack roll and deal damage with an unarmed attack.

1.) A grapple check is an attack roll, as per combat maneuvers:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."

2.) Grapple does damage with your UAS. This is the weak point, IMO.
"You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon.

3.) Stunning Fist requires you take make an attack (combat maneuver check) and deal damage with your unarmed attack (grapple damage option).
"You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally.

The only thing that might suggest otherwise is does the grapple damage option count as an dealing damage with an UNARMED ATTACK? You are dealing damage EQUAL to an UAS after an attack roll...

[Ravingdork]

Good enough for me.