Unarmed Fighter vs Martial Artist vs Master of Many Styles

[lantzkev]

Not really, they gain immunities to exhaustion, fatigue, stat/lvl drain, and they get an ability to do wis+lvl vs 10+cr to gain a +2 to hit and ignore that critters DR (all of it even x/-)

Your build has 24 str vs my 26str (+8 vs +7 which after feats etc means +12dmg vs +10)

you're two points behind in dmg due to this without factoring your other things in.

Also I'm not sure if you factored in the losing AC while attacking with offhand (two weapon fighting is defined by attacking with offhand) and the -1 to attack rolls while using the shield.

So you either a) are 2pts behind on accuracy, or b) 1pt behind and losing 3 ac.

Also I'm not sure how the 1d3+24 gets ahead of the 2d8+24 and the rest 2d8+20 considering the slightly less accurate build you've presented, even with two weapon rendof 15.

your min/max hit is 25 or 27 where the monk is 22 or 36, which I would assume averages to 29dmg and yours 26...

[Zeriax]

I guess you are right Iantzkev, I was just considering that loss more dramatic cause I am building a frontline monk, and the AC bonus from the ki expenditure is a tad better.

Meaning he would have the possibility to overcome DR + spend a point for the +4 on DC, whereas the Martial Artist needs to chose between overcoming DR or having more AC - am I looking at this correctly?

Also, if for example my first blow on a flurry drops an oponent on which I have used Exploit Weakness to overcame his DR, if I use my next strike to hit another opponent also with DR, Exploit has no effect, whereas keeping a ki point in the pool maintains the ability to overcome DR always active - is this correct?

On another note, I guess this has already probably been addressed, but if I am a tiefling with the bite Alternate Racial trait, can I fit the bite attack + the flurry? Or attack once + the bite?

Thanks for any feedback on these...

[lantzkev]

oh yeah, I don't disagree with having a monk with ki with how they have improved the DR situation (I would actually go with a none martial artist, most likely MoMS hybrid with fighter with gunslinger thrown in (see my thread about gunslinger monk) but the point was most damage here, and martial artist happened to be one I've done before (prior to ki changes)

I personally wouldn't bother with some of the feats I've used in this build on a monk, but the point of this is MOAR DPS heh.

Likewise I'm sure a fighter wouldn't focus as heavily as they are either on unarmed and focus more on weapons etc, since they will do way more damage, and have better defenses.

[Zeriax]

Yeah I was actually considering a MoMS - I am a fan but... It just seems that losing the flurry is also a pain.

I was toying around with the idea for a "tank" type monk WITHOUT the whole crane line and using only one style, say Dragon for example, but... Dunno if he can make it :D

[Nicos]

lantzkev wrote:

Not really, they gain immunities to exhaustion, fatigue, stat/lvl drain, and they get an ability to do wis+lvl vs 10+cr to gain a +2 to hit and ignore that critters DR (all of it even x/-)

Your build has 24 str vs my 26str (+8 vs +7 which after feats etc means +12dmg vs +10)

you're two points behind in dmg due to this without factoring your other things in.

Also I'm not sure if you factored in the losing AC while attacking with offhand (two weapon fighting is defined by attacking with offhand) and the -1 to attack rolls while using the shield.

So you either a) are 2pts behind on accuracy, or b) 1pt behind and losing 3 ac.

Also I'm not sure how the 1d3+24 gets ahead of the 2d8+24 and the rest 2d8+20 considering the slightly less accurate build you've presented, even with two weapon rendof 15.

your min/max hit is 25 or 27 where the monk is 22 or 36, which I would assume averages to 29dmg and yours 26...

Assuming you are talking to me

I can totally TWF without the hands as I can use unarmed strikes with the legs or the head so I do not lose the Shield bonus to AC, Also I do not see why -1 to hit from using a shield. So the fighter is ahead 3 poins in AC.

Also, m y main hand damage is 1d3+28, 1d3+24 is the off hand damage. and you are right the monk have better acuaracy.

Note that the fighter outdamage your monk if you do not take power attack (your damage is 2d8+18) but when i did the DPR calculation a couple of post ago the power attacking monk is little better.

[lantzkev]

Because regardless of where the attack is coming from the rules state "offhand attacks negate your ac bonus" and the rules also state that if you have it one while making an offhand attack you suffer a -1 attack.

Regardless of what you feel the intent is, the rules say very clearly these penalties or lack of bonuses happen.

the power attacking monk doesn't get to happen in my build because you'd have to drop a lvl 3+ feat to pick it up, since your bab is 1 at the start, unless you let it be picked up at first lvl due to flurry acting as BAB = lvl.

My damage WITHOUT power attack is 2d8+24 for the first attack and 2d8+20 for all others.

Considering the average damage excluding criticals for this is 32 and 28dmg. I fail to see how your average of 30dmg and 26 for the offhand beat that.

Factoring higher average damage and better accuracy I can't see how you're claiming to be winning this fight.

[Nicos]

(note that I am not claiming I am wining, I actually state the martial srtist is doing better at damage)

Where I can find the rules about "off hands attacks negating the shield AC bonus"? where the -1 to damage coms from?

lantzkev wrote:

My damage WITHOUT power attack is 2d8+24 for the first attack and 2d8+20 for all others.

"+10/+10/+5/+5/+0 (now we add weapon focus(2), str(8), aomf(3), and exploit (2) in)

+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 at 2d8+12(1.5xstr due to dragon, 1st attack +16) weapon specialization +4, AoMF +4"

I see, you are adding the bonus from dragon ferocity on top of dragon style, I though it did not work like that.

asuming you are right I drop the shield and buy monk robes. Now my max average damage is 38 and the min is 31. Your average maz damage is 31 and your average min damage 29

Human
Unarmed fighter.

=== Stats ===

Str 18 (24 with level and belt)
Dex 16 (17 with level)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 7

=== Defense ===
AC: 22

10+ 6 (armor)+ 3 (shield)+ 1 (protection)+3 (dex)+ 1 Insight+ 1(untyped)

CMD: 35

=== Saves ===

Fort +12
Ref +11
Will +11

=== Attacks ===
Full attack

Main hand

Unarmed strike: +25/+20/+15* (1d8+31** 19-20/x2) (1d8+34 with the first attack)

Off hand

+25/+20 (1d8+27 19-20/x2)

Two weapon rend: 1d10+10

=== Traits ===
+1 ref, +1 will.

=== Feats ===

1. Power attack, Weapon focus (unarmed), Dragon style , Imporved unarmed strike.
2. TWF
3. Stunning fist
4. Weapon specialization
5. Double Slice
6. Dragon ferocity
7. Improved grapple
8. Improved critical hit (unarmed)
9. Improved TWF
10. greater weapon focus (unarmed)
11. Two weapond rend
12. Greater Weapon Specialization

=== Special ===
Clever Wrestler (Ex), Weapon training 2, Trick Throw, Takedown, Tough Guy ,Harsh Training

=== gear ===
AoMF +3 (32 K)
+2 Brawler mitrahl chainshirt (9 K)
Gloves of dueling (15K)
Monk robes (13 K)
+1 Ring of protection (2K)
Wayfinder + Dusty Rose Prism (4,5 K)
+3 Cloak of resistance (9K)
cracked Pale Green Prism (attack) ( 4K)
+4 Belt of Str (16 K)

[lantzkev]

slight problem in your build, you can't take stunning fist until lvl 8. Which means you've then got to decide on replacing

"8. Improved critical hit (unarmed)
9. Improved TWF
10. greater weapon focus (unarmed)
11. Two weapond rend
12. Greater Weapon Specialization

" with stunning fist and the dragon ferocity you're adding in.

[lantzkev]

Also I'm assuming you'd drop one of the tratis (and I didn't include traits in mine either) for the +1 to unarmed damage.

[Nicos]

lantzkev wrote:

slight problem in your build, you can't take stunning fist until lvl 8. Which means you've then got to decide on replacing

"8. Improved critical hit (unarmed)
9. Improved TWF
10. greater weapon focus (unarmed)
11. Two weapond rend
12. Greater Weapon Specialization

" with stunning fist and the dragon ferocity you're adding in.

You are right I can note take the feat in that order but not that I can retrain feats at the 8th and the 12th level (stunning fist and dragon ferocity in that order) so the problmes end there.

[TGMaxMaxer]

K... I can fix that for him.

1. Power attack, Furious Focus, Dragon style , Improved unarmed strike.
2. TWF
3. Wpn Focus (unarmed)
4. Weapon specialization
5. Double Slice
6. Imp TWF (Requires first stat bump to dex)
7. Imp Grapple
8. Improved crit(unarmed), Retrain furious focus->stunning fist
9. Dragon Ferocity
10. greater weapon focus (unarmed)
11. Two weapond rend
12. Greater Weapon Specialization

So Numbers at level 12 unchanged, all feats accounted for, and legal by level.

[lantzkev]

so now we see that you're doing

1d8 +7(str)+3(1/2 str dragon)+4 weapon spec +4(weapon training)+2 brawling+6 for main power attack=1d8+28 no? 1st attack 1d8+31(half 7str again 3...)

attack is +10/+10/+5/+5/+0 with +4 weapon spec +2 brawling? +2 focus +3 aomf +1 prism? +7str -3 power attack?

so +26?/+26/+21/+21/+16? If I have that right.

And the damage is roughly

1d8+31/1d8+25/1d8+28/1d8+25/1d8+28?

So average is 35+29+31+29+31 I think? total 155 if all hit?

Mind didn't include a stone (but we can add it in for the same accuracy at this point) and my damage is

28x4 and 32 on average (the low average, high we bump em all up one) and the max damage is considerably higher than yours. Although the rend certainly gets it up there.

Unfortunately as we get up in levels you now can't get greater two weapon fighting and the damage gap gets larger in favor of the monk, and until lvl 12 when you do the retraining it's ahead.

Then at lvl 15 the monk is ahead again. So for three levels 12-14 the fighter "beats" the monk.

i'll conceed you didn't add natural attacks in there, so that would change things a bit for sure. but those would all suffer -5 attacks, only +6damage.