Hello,
My daughter, 8, and I are having trouble with her tiger attacks. I've done a bunch of reading and am wondering if I have this sorted correctly now. Here goes:
If the tiger moves then she only gets one attack, usually a bite. If the tiger is next to an opponent, she gets 3 attacks, bite, claw, claw and can make a 5-foot step.
On to the rake, and here's where I get confused being a new PF GM. Does my daughter have to announce she wants the tiger to grapple? Can the tiger move to the target then announce grapple, then the opponent makes a CMD roll? How does this process work?
Once grappled, the tiger gets 5 attacks? Bite, claw, claw, rake, rake. Does she have to roll to hit on any of those?
As you can see I'm really struggling to understand combat maneuvers.
Thanks for any help!
You're right on the first part;
Bite is an attack action
Bite, Claw, Claw is a full attack action
Because a tiger's bite and claws have the special quality called "Grab", a successful hit from one of these attacks allows an immediate free grapple action. She can choose to make this grapple after her attack hits; she does not need to specify it before hand (this is because it is part of the attack; her druid would have to actually say 'I am going to try and grapple' and then make the check per rules).
A tiger who has grappled an opponent may do all the normal things a grappler can do (move target, one free auto-hit natural attack, pin the target, let go) and is also allows a free rake attack doing the damage listed under rake (1d8 + 6). A rake is only allowed on a turn that starts with the tiger grappling; you cannot do it on the same turn as you grappled.
Once grappled, the tiger can only make three attacks (all autohit). One is the free grapple attack which auto hits and can be from any of the tiger's attack options (usually bite). Then it can also gets to do the two rakes. So every turn the tiger is hugging something, it can do a free 2d6 + 6 + 1d8 + 6 + 1d8 + 6 = 2d6 + 2d8 + 24 in damage. Yes, it is brutal
Rake is also performed when the tiger charges a target. Pounce means that it can charge and do bite, claw, claw, rake, rake. Then you can use the Grab ability to initiate a grapple and do free damage the next round (if the creature doesn't escape)
So with a tiger, you generally charge in to do 5 attacks, grapple, then do 3 free autohits a round until the target dies. Then repeat.
Are rake attacks while grappled "autohits"? I have not been treating them that way.
Oh... hmm. I just reread the Rake is says you get free natural attacks while grappling, but not auto-hit; that is only for the "autohit them once" option a grappler can perform. My mistake.
So when grappling you can do a bite that autohits for 2d6 + 6 damage and roll two claw attacks. Note that the AC of the grappled target is lower on account of him being grappled (-4 dex).
Note that the AC of the grappled target is lower on account of him being grappled (-4 dex).
Also note the attacker also has the grappled condition (if it did not elect to Hold), which imparts a –2 penalty on non-grapple attack rolls.
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I believe the following scenario also works:
Round 1: Charge the target and bite. Bite hits, free grapple attempt is successful.
Round 2: If the target doesn't escape the grapple, the tiger gets 2 free rake attacks (roll attack rolls normally). Then free action to release the grapple and full-attack with claw claw bite, with the normal opportunities to regrapple on the bites and claws. Alternatively, you could choose to advance the grapple as a standard action and get your two free rakes, but not the full-attack.
I believe the following scenario also works:
Round 1: Charge the target and bite. Bite hits, free grapple attempt is successful.
And if it has pounce, it can finish it's full attack (taking the grappled penalties, but against the grappled target)
Round 2: If the target doesn't escape the grapple, the tiger gets 2 free rake attacks (roll attack rolls normally). Then free action to release the grapple and full-attack with claw claw bite, with the normal opportunities to regrapple on the bites and claws.
"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."
The second part of the sentence means if you use rake, then drop the grapple, you can't begin a grapple again that turn (because doing so would mean you begun a grapple and raked in the same turn).
I think the intent is that the rake happens as part of whatever you do when you maintain the grapple. That's not explicit in the rules, but at least you're limited to grabbing every other turn instead of constant full attack with free rakes.
Thanks for the replies all!
The problem I am having is it doesn't seem her tiger has grab or pounce. As an animal companion, they don't get those abilities until 7th level.
Given that, lets see if I have learned anything.
She announces the tiger is going to bite and grapple. If successful, the cat does bite damage and the victim is grappled. On the victim's turn, they can try to get away. If they don't the tiger auto-hits with the bite, but has to roll two rake attacks with the back claws. The front claws are assumed to be helping hold the victim, not doing any damage.
Is that almost correct? I would ask how to break free etc. but I'll re-read that section. The different attacks, pounce, grapple, charge, flank, etc are all still too new to me. I really don't even want to tell my players these are options or I'll spend the whole night looking the process up. :)
Thanks!
Almost correct! The bite attack is separate from the grapple. So you roll to hit with the bite. If you succeed, you can THEN roll to grapple the target (d20 + tiger's CMB vs the target's CMD). If you succeed on this check, the tiger is now grappling the target.
You are correct for the next round when grappling the target; one free bite and two attack rolls for claws.
It can be a little complicated but does enrich the combat by offering many different options and counter tactics. Grappling is rather complex in its own right and it can be simplified if necessary.
She announces the tiger is going to bite and grapple. If successful, the cat does bite damage and the victim is grappled. On the victim's turn, they can try to get away. If they don't the tiger auto-hits with the bite, but has to roll two rake attacks with the back claws. The front claws are assumed to be helping hold the victim, not doing any damage.
Assuming she's 7th level (or the tiger got Grab some other way)
Tiger attacks (either a standard action attack, or as part of a full-attack, whatever) and uses bite. You roll to hit on the bite against normal AC. If it hits, roll bite damage. Now, since the bite hit, Grab lets you make a grapple check as a free action. So roll the combat maneuver against the the targets CMD. If that's a success, then the target (and the tiger) are grappled.
On the victims turn, he can try to escape. Lets say he doesn't.
On the tiger's next turn, it needs to choose to keep grappling, or to drop it. Lets say he wants to keep grappling, so he makes a grapple check as a standard action to maintain the grapple. He gets a +5 bonus on this because his victim didn't escape. If the tiger's grapple check is a success, he's maintained the grapple, and he can choose to Move, Damage, or Pin the victim. Lets say he chooses damage, so roll Bite damage. You don't need to roll the attack, that was taken care of with the grapple check, the bite damage is 'free'. Now, since the tiger has the Rake ability, you can make two rake attacks. You have to roll to hit with each of them. Whichever ones hit deal claw damage.
However, if the tiger does not yet have 7th-level advancement, it doesn't have grab, which means if it wants to grapple someone, it must start the grapple as a standard action (just like if a normal human wanted to). This will provoke an attack of opportunity from the target unless the tiger has the Improved Grapple feat. If it successfully grapples someone, they both get the grappled condition, and that's it. No bite damage. The next round if it maintains, it works just like I described above, free bite damage and two rake attacks.
Thanks very much.
Yes, she's first level and that's how I was reading it later last night after the paizo site was down. Because no grab or grapple or anything like that, the tiger is just a normal PC/NPC and I figured the opponent would get an attack of opportunity.
With all that said, I think the smarter way to attack with the tiger currently is to move to the target then bite, then next round three attack the target. I think I'll revisit grabs etc. if/when she either gets a feat or something that allows this, or 7th level.
Now to look into how to get the tiger to wear armor.
It can take light armor prof as a feat and wear chain shirt barding.. Just remember to upgrade it to large size at 7th.. Additionally if u wanna wait till she has the cash, mithirl chain shirt barding has a acp of 0, so u wouldnt need the feat to wear it..
Animals can also benefit from as many item slots as humanoid characters can. If the GM rules that wondrous items reshape to the wearer, or otherwise allow PCs to modify items to be worn by creatures other than the original user, then an animal companion is a great place to stick the fifth Amulet of Natural Armor instead of selling it at half price.
So on turn 1 a grappler can initiate a grapple. Then the target can, on his turn, attempt to break out. If he doesn't, then on the second turn the grappler may do one of several actions as part of the standard action required to maintain a grapple
1) Move the target
2) Pin the target
3) Damage the target:
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Please see this link for the complete rules on grappling.
Just wanted to make sure I'm reading this correctly...a natural attack while being grappled auto hits?
No, I don't believe this is correct. Yes, someone asserted that to be the case, but I believe natural attacks still need to be rolled, just as any other attack would require a roll.
The grappled person would be at -4 to Dex I believe, which might affect their armor class.
if your initial grapple check for the round succeeds, then yes you get free damage with a natural attack, but you still rolled for the grapple with a standard action, so it's not really 'free' it's just the damage you do for successfully continuing the grapple.
The attack form that is being used to maintain the grapple, claw or bite, does auto hit if you choose to damage your opponent.