Alter Self for Large + Creatures

[Wind Chime]

Say I had a colossal dragon with 50 strength, 40 constitution and 20 dex and he used alter self on himself to turn into a medium creature what would his stats now be?

[LazarX]

He would have the same stats but they'd be modifying Human 1d3 unarmed attacks. Or weapon attacks if he pulled out a sword.

Sound wonky? You're not the first to discover that the entire magic system is based on the idea it's being used by normal sized humanoids and certain aspects go wonky when you go away from them.

Then again why WOULD a colossal dragon use Alter Self? Not for it's combat power, because after all, there are few things more combat capable than it's own true form.

If you have a problem, houserule it for your game. But don't expect Paizo to be revising it's rules for use by Colossal creatures. Instead use spells that make sense for such critters to use.

[Wind Chime]

LazarX wrote:

He would have the same stats but they'd be modifying Human 1d3 unarmed attacks. Or weapon attacks if he pulled out a sword.

Sound wonky? You're not the first to discover that the entire magic system is based on the idea it's being used by normal sized humanoids and certain aspects go wonky when you go away from them.

Then again why WOULD a colossal dragon use Alter Self? Not for it's combat power, because after all, there are few things more combat capable than it's own true form.

If you have a problem, houserule it for your game. But don't expect Paizo to be revising it's rules for use by Colossal creatures. Instead use spells that make sense for such critters to use.

Would he actually get the +2 bonus to strength it doesn't make sense but that seems to be how the rules are written.

[LazarX]

Wind Chime wrote:

LazarX wrote:

He would have the same stats but they'd be modifying Human 1d3 unarmed attacks. Or weapon attacks if he pulled out a sword.

Sound wonky? You're not the first to discover that the entire magic system is based on the idea it's being used by normal sized humanoids and certain aspects go wonky when you go away from them.

Then again why WOULD a colossal dragon use Alter Self? Not for it's combat power, because after all, there are few things more combat capable than it's own true form.

If you have a problem, houserule it for your game. But don't expect Paizo to be revising it's rules for use by Colossal creatures. Instead use spells that make sense for such critters to use.

Would he actually get the +2 bonus to strength it doesn't make sense but that seems to be how the rules are written.

Yes he would, but this would be more than balanced by losing his size bonuses from being colossal. He'd still be pretty good at winning arm wrestling duels though. You don't seem to be getting my point though. A dragon would not be casting the spell to gain a combat advantage.

[Christopher Van Horn]

I believe you apply the size rules to downsize him to medium and then apply the +2 Strength bonus for the spell.

There is a table in the magic section (under the polymorph rules) of the core rulebook that deals with this, copied below for convenience:

Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Fine +6 –6 — Small
Diminutive +6 –4 — Small
Tiny +4 –2 — Small
Large –4 +2 –2 Medium
Huge –8 +4 –4 Medium
Gargantuan –12 +4 –6 Medium
Colossal –16 +4 –8 Medium

So apply those adjustments then the spell and viola! Instant disguised dragon!

[james maissen]

Wind Chime wrote:

Say I had a colossal dragon with 50 strength, 40 constitution and 20 dex and he used alter self on himself to turn into a medium creature what would his stats now be?

There is a section on polymorphing. Sadly the polymorphing spells do not reference it. Everything is based on being medium or small size.

You would adjust the dragon down to medium size and then apply the spell's bonus.

Mr Van Horn copied the bit on it for you, but really you're best served by finding it in the core rules so you can reference it later.

-James

[Seraphimpunk]

... and i hope mr. Dragon has plans for what to do to replace his awesome and now gone natural AC bonus...

maybe a Veil spell would work better for him...

[Dragonamedrake]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

... and i hope mr. Dragon has plans for what to do to replace his awesome and now gone natural AC bonus...

maybe a Veil spell would work better for him...

Sorry for the post necro but I have to ask if this is correct. RAW I dont think he would loose his NA. I ask because Im stating up a NPC Beast-Bound Witch who has used his Permanent Magic Jar on a Great Wyrm Black Dragon. But I wanted to stat him up with a Greater Hat of Disguise (Uses Alter Self).

From what I understand.

1. Reduce his stats based on the new size bonus (–12 Str +4 Dex –6 Con)
2. Add the +2 Str
3. Everything else stayes the same (NA, DR, SR, ect)

Is this correct?

[james maissen]

Dragonamedrake wrote:

Sorry for the post necro but I have to ask if this is correct. RAW I dont think he would loose his NA. I ask because Im stating up a NPC Beast-Bound Witch who has used his Permanent Magic Jar on a Great Wyrm Black Dragon. But I wanted to stat him up with a Greater Hat of Disguise (Uses Alter Self).

From what I understand.

1. Reduce his stats based on the new size bonus (–12 Str +4 Dex –6 Con)
2. Add the +2 Str
3. Everything else stayes the same (NA, DR, SR, ect)

Is this correct?

Go to the magic section, under transmutation and the polymorph subschool.

The dragon would no longer have his claws, wings, or bite for example.. right? (Why?)

Read the section there and determine whether or not you think that the dragon's hide should also fit in there (or not).

What form will the dragon be in? What will his hide/scales be like? His claws, teeth, etc?

-James