Gunslinger rules questions: Official rulings requested

[Señor Cat Poop]

So I've been looking at the Gunslinger for a long time and I have many questions about a few inconsistencies that I see. The biggest question I have is about a Pistolero class feature.

This is from the vanilla Gunslinger:
-Gun Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.

This is from Pistolero:
-Pistol Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm.

This is from Musket Master:
-Musket Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm.

This replaces gun training 1, 2, 3, and 4.

My questions are:
1)Should there be an errata stating that pistol training replaces gun training 1, 2, 3, and 4? It was clearly a replacement class feature for the Musket Master.
2)If it's not an errata, does this mean that the Pistolero gets to add double their dexterity modifier to damage rolls? If so, why not?

I don't discourage anyone's comments, but am really seeking an official ruling on this... I've heard a hundred arguments from a hundred people who think it goes many different ways. Hell, I've played it both ways in different campaigns. I'm currently playing a gunslinger in a Pathfinder Society setting, and wanted to officially know what it should be since PFS is very strict on the rules and the house has no say.

[Paz]

I have a PFS pistolero that's just reached level 5, so I too would welcome an official response/errata (and have FAQed your post).

I am 99% sure that it's supposed to entirely replace gun training, but until a Paizo person says so officially, people will still argue that they stack, and by extension that gunslingers can take both the pistolero and mysterious stranger archetypes. Also, Hero Lab assumes they both apply, and an official word to the contrary is probably the only thing that would get that fixed.

[Roberta Yang]

Speaking of Gunslinger archetypes that could use some errata, Gun Tank and Buccaneer both replace all five levels of Nimble, but only provide a bonus at 2nd level, leaving levels 6, 10, 14, and 18 effectively empty. Were they meant to only replace the 2nd-level progression of Nimble?

[Señor Cat Poop]

Paz: I agree. I really want that official word. I'd also like to go on record that I'd NEVER want to use Mysterious Stranger... getting rid of quick clear is a death sentence. The other bonuses are really nice, but getting rid of quick clear is just too risky. The only way I'd play a Mysterious Pistolero is if I were playing a campaign that started at 13th level or higher because at that point, you never misfire with pistols. The gunslinger that I'm playing for PFS reserves all of his grit for clearing malfunctions... until level 13 ;)

Roberta: You don't acquire more ranks of Nimble at 6, 10 , 14, and 18. Nimble just grows in effectiveness with your level... therefore it's correct that it's only replaced one time at 2nd level.

[Roberta Yang]

Señor Cat Poop wrote:

Roberta: You don't acquire more ranks of Nimble at 6, 10 , 14, and 18. Nimble just grows in effectiveness with your level... therefore it's correct that it's only replaced one time at 2nd level.

But Gun Tank and Buccaneer's replacements for Nimble don't grow with level. Normally you're getting something at levels 6/10/14/18; replacing Nimble at those levels without offering anything in return means the gunslinger isn't gaining any class features at all at those levels except maybe progression to a couple of Deed DC's.

Compare how Fighter archetypes handle Bravery. Most of them replace it with something that grows at the same levels Bravery does, and a few, like Lore Warden, only replace the progression of Bravery at certain levels.

[LazarX]

No it's not a double dipping, they just represent widening the scope of that ability from one specific firearm type at first level to broader areas of firearms at later levels. If it helps, think of them as overlapping bonuses.

[Señor Cat Poop]

Roberta: I'm still sticking to what I said before. The reason Armor Training would level up with you like Nimble is because you would expect that the player is upgrading their armor both in type and enhancement bonus as the game progresses. If you want to look at it another way, you're losing a great class feature (nimble) for something that just isn't as good because it doesn't grow (armor training) and that's just the way it is. Another good example of how life isn't fair: the feats Deadly Aim and Power Attack grow with base attack bonus, but in order to get better at Vital strike you have to go three feats deep in a tree. Not all class features and feats are created equal.

Lazar: I agree that Pistol Training coupled with Gun Training allow you to broaden the kinds of firearms that you use, but I have two arguments:
1) If that was their intent, they'd have let Musket Masters broaden their horizons into the pistol world
2) Pistoleros aren't proficient with two handed firearms and Pistol Training already covers all pistols. In order to cash in on taking gun training for a two handed firearm, you'd have to take a feat to learn how to use two handed firearms as well.

The double dip I am speaking of is specifically:

If a 5th level or above gunslinger is using a one handed firearm that they have chosen for gun training, do they get to apply double their dexterity modifier to damage.

I can't word it clearer than that. RAW says yes.

[LazarX]

Señor Cat Poop wrote:

If a 5th level or above gunslinger is using a one handed firearm that they have chosen for gun training, do they get to apply double their dexterity modifier to damage.

I can't word it clearer than that. RAW says yes.

Raw saying yes would be something on the order of "And the pistol type chosen at first level gains another +2". That's what raw would say if the text was there, the only thing that says yes, is your interpretation of missing text.

[Señor Cat Poop]

I'm sorry LazarX, but I don't feel like that's a clear or technical answer at all. It'll take more than what you posted to change my personal opinion. Like I said earlier though, I won't really be satisfied until a Paizo rep. steps in and gives an official word.

[RtrnofdMax]

For expedient responses, your only choice is the Ask James Jacobs thread. He will get back to you within a day. However, his title does not state he is part of the rules team so people here will often tell you his rulings are non-binding. I tend to take his rulings as official until a rules guy says otherwise.

[Señor Cat Poop]

James Jacob has been asked! I will repost his answer here once I have it.

[Señor Cat Poop]

James Jacob has passed the buck:

Paizo Employee James Jacobs Creative Director Wednesday, 09:37 PM | Flag |
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James Jacobs
Señor Cat Poop wrote:

This is a repost from another thread that I started, but was told I should come here for an expedient, though not totally official, resonse.

So I've been looking at the Gunslinger for a long time and I have many questions about a few inconsistencies that I see. The biggest question I have is about a Pistolero class feature...

Alas, I won't be giving an expedient response here. Rules questions like these need to go to the rules forums so the design team can interact with them and folks can hit the FAQ button to help us determine which questions need to be answered. ESPECIALLY if you're hoping for and expecting errata.

[Odraude]

Señor Cat Poop wrote:

James Jacob has passed the buck:

Paizo Employee James Jacobs Creative Director Wednesday, 09:37 PM | Flag |
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James Jacobs
Señor Cat Poop wrote:

This is a repost from another thread that I started, but was told I should come here for an expedient, though not totally official, resonse.

So I've been looking at the Gunslinger for a long time and I have many questions about a few inconsistencies that I see. The biggest question I have is about a Pistolero class feature...

Alas, I won't be giving an expedient response here. Rules questions like these need to go to the rules forums so the design team can interact with them and folks can hit the FAQ button to help us determine which questions need to be answered. ESPECIALLY if you're hoping for and expecting errata.

Yeah sorry, but JJ won't be answering rules questions anymore because a group of people complained about different people giving different rulings. So now, you just have to FAQ this and hope someone answers.

[Diego Rossi]

Roberta Yang wrote:

Speaking of Gunslinger archetypes that could use some errata, Gun Tank and Buccaneer both replace all five levels of Nimble, but only provide a bonus at 2nd level, leaving levels 6, 10, 14, and 18 effectively empty. Were they meant to only replace the 2nd-level progression of Nimble?

Quote:

Bullet Defection (Ex): A gun tank is adept at modifying and using her armor to stop firearm attacks. Starting at 2nd level, a gun tank wearing medium or heavy armor gains half the armor's bonus plus the armor's enhancement bonus (if any) as a deflection bonus against any non-siege firearm or splash weapon attack (including the alchemist's bomb class ability). This ability has no affect on spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities that make a touch attack. This ability replaces nimble.

Up to 9 points of deflection bonus (+5 full plate) against firearms and splash weapons from level 2 against getting up to +5 points of dodge bonus in light armor. I think that the intention is to replace completely nimble

Quote:

Liquid Courage (Ex)

At 2nd level, a buccaneer gains the ability to fortify her grit with strong drink. The act of drinking is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, and each drink provides 1 grog point. Grog points can be used in place of grit points to fuel deeds or grit feats (including those requiring a minimum of 1 grit point to use). The buccaneer can gain a maximum number of grog points each day equal to her Constitution modifier (minimum 1), and they last for 1 hour or until used, whichever comes first. She gains a morale bonus on saves against fear and a dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity equal to her current grog point total.

This ability replaces the nimble ability.

A bit more dubious, but grit point become more useful as you increase the number of grit based abilities you have.

[Diego Rossi]

Señor Cat Poop wrote:

The double dip I am speaking of is specifically:

If a 5th level or above gunslinger is using a one handed firearm that they have chosen for gun training, do they get to apply double their dexterity modifier to damage.

I can't word it clearer than that. RAW says yes.

From a few Dev posts, unless an ability explicitly states that you can add 2 times the same characteristic, you add it only one time.

It is part of the stacking rules:

PRD wrote:

Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

From the Devs posts adding two times the same characteristic thanks to different abilities is adding the same bonus two times and so not allowed. It could be spelled more clearly but apparently that is the RAI of the rule.

There are spells or powers that allow that but it must be specifically written in the ability.

[Diego Rossi]

RtrnofdMax wrote:

For expedient responses, your only choice is the Ask James Jacobs thread. He will get back to you within a day. However, his title does not state he is part of the rules team so people here will often tell you his rulings are non-binding. I tend to take his rulings as official until a rules guy says otherwise.

Thanks to the "Pazio get your house in order" thread (or whatever was the exact title) he will say: "Ask it in the rule section".

[Señor Cat Poop]

Great job spelling it out a few things Diego... I always love clear, lucid responses backed up by facts. I had pointed out the same thing about bullet deflection earlier:

Roberta: I'm still sticking to what I said before. The reason Armor Training would level up with you like Nimble is because you would expect that the player is upgrading their armor both in type and enhancement bonus as the game progresses. If you want to look at it another way, you're losing a great class feature (nimble) for something that just isn't as good because it doesn't grow (armor training) and that's just the way it is. Another good example of how life isn't fair: the feats Deadly Aim and Power Attack grow with base attack bonus, but in order to get better at Vital strike you have to go three feats deep in a tree. Not all class features and feats are created equal.

I'm glad to have someone back me up with cold hard facts.

As far as the "double dip" goes, I 100% agree that stacking is supposed to work the way that you're saying it does (as in, in this case it doesn't stack and you don't get 2x dex to damage). HOWEVER, my friend Aaron pointed out to me that it's not listed as a dexterity bonus within the deed. The only ways to look at it are as an untyped bonus or as two different bonuses from two differently named skills (gun training vs. pistol training). I'd like to reiterate that I totally agree that RAI this shouldn't stack at all, and I in fact believe that Pistoleros shouldn't have access to gun training... but they do. I'm just trying to call attention to the issue and continue to discuss it so that hopefully it attracts the attention of a rules guy who wants to clear the air once and for all.