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A friend and I were discussing this and the decision that we landed on was based off of the super basic spell acid arrow. If hit by multiple acid arrows, the damage would stack, but the real question is would making the full round reflex save the next turn put out the damage from all of the bombs or from one of the bombs?

Example: I throw 4 immolation bombs at you on my turn, and they all hit. Do you need to spend 4 rounds putting them out, or do you save once and all 4 effects end simultaneously?

Either way, it's a nasty thing to do to someone and here's a good work around to letting them save at all... get the discoveries "force bomb" and "stink bomb" as well. If you lead with a force bomb and knock them prone, they'll have to choose to lay on the ground and put the fire out or stand up and take an extra turn of burning. If you lead with stink bomb, they are incapable of taking a full round action and would be forced to eat all of your immolation damage until the nauseating effect wore off. If you're a real dick, throw a force bomb, a nauseating bomb, and then as many immolation bombs as you have left over... boss fight finished :P

Great job spelling it out a few things Diego... I always love clear, lucid responses backed up by facts. I had pointed out the same thing about bullet deflection earlier:

Roberta: I'm still sticking to what I said before. The reason Armor Training would level up with you like Nimble is because you would expect that the player is upgrading their armor both in type and enhancement bonus as the game progresses. If you want to look at it another way, you're losing a great class feature (nimble) for something that just isn't as good because it doesn't grow (armor training) and that's just the way it is. Another good example of how life isn't fair: the feats Deadly Aim and Power Attack grow with base attack bonus, but in order to get better at Vital strike you have to go three feats deep in a tree. Not all class features and feats are created equal.

I'm glad to have someone back me up with cold hard facts.

As far as the "double dip" goes, I 100% agree that stacking is supposed to work the way that you're saying it does (as in, in this case it doesn't stack and you don't get 2x dex to damage). HOWEVER, my friend Aaron pointed out to me that it's not listed as a dexterity bonus within the deed. The only ways to look at it are as an untyped bonus or as two different bonuses from two differently named skills (gun training vs. pistol training). I'd like to reiterate that I totally agree that RAI this shouldn't stack at all, and I in fact believe that Pistoleros shouldn't have access to gun training... but they do. I'm just trying to call attention to the issue and continue to discuss it so that hopefully it attracts the attention of a rules guy who wants to clear the air once and for all.

James Jacob has passed the buck:

Paizo Employee James Jacobs Creative Director Wednesday, 09:37 PM | Flag |
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James Jacobs
Señor Cat Poop wrote:

This is a repost from another thread that I started, but was told I should come here for an expedient, though not totally official, resonse.

So I've been looking at the Gunslinger for a long time and I have many questions about a few inconsistencies that I see. The biggest question I have is about a Pistolero class feature...

Alas, I won't be giving an expedient response here. Rules questions like these need to go to the rules forums so the design team can interact with them and folks can hit the FAQ button to help us determine which questions need to be answered. ESPECIALLY if you're hoping for and expecting errata.

James Jacob has been asked! I will repost his answer here once I have it.

This is a repost from another thread that I started, but was told I should come here for an expedient, though not totally official, resonse.

So I've been looking at the Gunslinger for a long time and I have many questions about a few inconsistencies that I see. The biggest question I have is about a Pistolero class feature.

This is from the vanilla Gunslinger:
-Gun Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.

This is from Pistolero:
-Pistol Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm.

This is from Musket Master:
-Musket Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm.

This replaces gun training 1, 2, 3, and 4.

My questions are:
1)Should there be an errata stating that pistol training replaces gun training 1, 2, 3, and 4? It was clearly a replacement class feature for the Musket Master.
2)If it's not an errata, does this mean that a 5th level or above Pistolero with gun training on a specific firearm gets to add double their dexterity modifier to damage rolls with that firearm?

I'm sorry LazarX, but I don't feel like that's a clear or technical answer at all. It'll take more than what you posted to change my personal opinion. Like I said earlier though, I won't really be satisfied until a Paizo rep. steps in and gives an official word.

Roberta: I'm still sticking to what I said before. The reason Armor Training would level up with you like Nimble is because you would expect that the player is upgrading their armor both in type and enhancement bonus as the game progresses. If you want to look at it another way, you're losing a great class feature (nimble) for something that just isn't as good because it doesn't grow (armor training) and that's just the way it is. Another good example of how life isn't fair: the feats Deadly Aim and Power Attack grow with base attack bonus, but in order to get better at Vital strike you have to go three feats deep in a tree. Not all class features and feats are created equal.

Lazar: I agree that Pistol Training coupled with Gun Training allow you to broaden the kinds of firearms that you use, but I have two arguments:
1) If that was their intent, they'd have let Musket Masters broaden their horizons into the pistol world
2) Pistoleros aren't proficient with two handed firearms and Pistol Training already covers all pistols. In order to cash in on taking gun training for a two handed firearm, you'd have to take a feat to learn how to use two handed firearms as well.

The double dip I am speaking of is specifically:

If a 5th level or above gunslinger is using a one handed firearm that they have chosen for gun training, do they get to apply double their dexterity modifier to damage.

I can't word it clearer than that. RAW says yes.

Paz: I agree. I really want that official word. I'd also like to go on record that I'd NEVER want to use Mysterious Stranger... getting rid of quick clear is a death sentence. The other bonuses are really nice, but getting rid of quick clear is just too risky. The only way I'd play a Mysterious Pistolero is if I were playing a campaign that started at 13th level or higher because at that point, you never misfire with pistols. The gunslinger that I'm playing for PFS reserves all of his grit for clearing malfunctions... until level 13 ;)

Roberta: You don't acquire more ranks of Nimble at 6, 10 , 14, and 18. Nimble just grows in effectiveness with your level... therefore it's correct that it's only replaced one time at 2nd level.

I've been giving this ring a lot of thought lately and it's huge... it's way better than you even realized, I'm betting. At face value, sure it counters ability score damage, but that's just the simple part. RoIF also negates some nasty debuffs to ability scores from entangled, exhausted, fatigued, etc. It also lets you do self harm in order to gain some kind of benefit:
-take a mutagen or cognatogen
-do drugs (I know it sounds funny, but some of them give GIANT bonuses)
-fill a Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess

Great item at all 3 price points, depending on what you want out of it.

So I've been looking at the Gunslinger for a long time and I have many questions about a few inconsistencies that I see. The biggest question I have is about a Pistolero class feature.

This is from the vanilla Gunslinger:
-Gun Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.

This is from Pistolero:
-Pistol Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a pistolero increases her skill with one-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a one-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm.

This is from Musket Master:
-Musket Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a musket master increases her skill with two-handed firearms. She gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to her Dexterity modifier, and when she misfires with a two-handed firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm.

This replaces gun training 1, 2, 3, and 4.

My questions are:
1)Should there be an errata stating that pistol training replaces gun training 1, 2, 3, and 4? It was clearly a replacement class feature for the Musket Master.
2)If it's not an errata, does this mean that the Pistolero gets to add double their dexterity modifier to damage rolls? If so, why not?

I don't discourage anyone's comments, but am really seeking an official ruling on this... I've heard a hundred arguments from a hundred people who think it goes many different ways. Hell, I've played it both ways in different campaigns. I'm currently playing a gunslinger in a Pathfinder Society setting, and wanted to officially know what it should be since PFS is very strict on the rules and the house has no say.