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It seems a little odd to me that someone can do 70 or more points of damage on a full attack on average and wants to complain about someone else doing 90 damage a round.
Especially when they choose to play what? A 12/13 str? Maybe the problem is you choose to play a dex based PC in a system meant for str based physical attacks with a bone(weapon finesse) thrown to people like you who insist on playing dex over all else.
It sounds to me like you want everything to be super close to each other regardless of choice. In that case than, why bother picking stuf at all, why not just have the DM give you a pregen? Because you will be jealous that the GM may give the more powerful PC to another player?
Be happy that you can design the PC mostly how you want feat/archetype wise and ask the GM to throw you a bone and hand out less filler items nobody wants and more gold so you can equip fairly by the wealth by level guidelines.
Do people really have to have penis envy in RPGs based on dps? Do you really have to cry that someone else is more effective than you? Can you not be happy with the contributions you do make?
I think it's more the difference of TWF being hailed by the system as an option for fighters *cough*valeros*cough* and then another character outdamages it by far, plus is much harder to take down, plus has casting somewhere between a bard and a wizard, plus has much more skill points.
I think if it just did more damage it'd be down to "well, TWF isn't the strongest option" but when it's a lot better at everything at the same time, that's another story.
Yes but we're not talking about them right now.
And... uhm... "Put anything a summoner can do to shame"? I agree barbarians can be awesome, but I don't see how barbarians can create planes of existance, summon Astral Devas et cetera. Yes, an optimized fighter or barbarian can outdamage a synthesist. It's that the synthesist isn't that far behind at damage and at the same time is infinitely much more versatile, has better defenses than the fighter (not better than a supersticious barb though, but that has it's own drawbacks such as not being able to be buffed in combat). And when damage can't solve an issue, barbs and especially fighters have a hard time contributing. Summoners, regardless of archetype, can more often than not find some good way to effectively contribute.
The party needs to get over a chasm? If you can't fly them over yourself, surely there's a summon that can.
The party's cleric is down and noone else is good at the happysticks? A lowly lantern archon can heal the whole party for 1d8+3 (as well as being generally useful) and and the Azata's have more healing power.
Encountering a magical obstacle? A barbarian might be able to sunder it, the summoner might be able to dispel it, the fighter is quite helpless.
Enemy is incorporeal, or has a massive AC, or high DR? Fighter and barbarian suffers quite heavily, summoner just pulls forth a bunch of lantern archons and buffs them up.
The party is on the losing side and needs to flee? Summoner has both Haste and Teleport, fighters and barbs might be able to block the enemy for a little while (which summons can do to), but that's highly risky and very dependant on enemies having low speeds and no good forms of movement.
All the while, it has the option to instead deal about 90% of the damage a fighter or barbarian deals, outside of specific circumstances (such as lance pounces).
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I played in a level 4-5 game with a 2H Barbarian and a Synthesist Summoner. I was playing an Archer Paladin in that game.
The Synthesist spent 90% of his turns whiffing madly, and the other 10% casting haste. The Barbarian and I were wrecking things left and right. Neither he nor I had characters built all that crazy. Let me look if I still have the Myth-weavers sheets for everybody.
My Paladin
The Synthesist (Myth-weavers must have been having a seizure the last time we played, his CMD and such is obviously not that high)
And I couldn't find the Barbarian's sheet, but he was pretty standard 18 Str, Power Attack, etc. Had EWP: Fauchard, iirc.
I played in a level 4-5 game with a 2H Barbarian and a Synthesist Summoner. I was playing an Archer Paladin in that game.
The Synthesist spent 90% of his turns whiffing madly, and the other 10% casting haste. The Barbarian and I were wrecking things left and right. Neither he nor I had characters built all that crazy. Let me look if I still have the Myth-weavers sheets for everybody.
My Paladin
The Synthesist (Myth-weavers must have been having a seizure the last time we played, his CMD and such is obviously not that high)
And I couldn't find the Barbarian's sheet, but he was pretty standard 18 Str, Power Attack, etc. Had EWP: Fauchard, iirc.
The synthesist's attack bonus is so close to the paladin's that bad rolls can more easily explain the whiffing than the build does itself.
That said, this synthesist looks pretty harmless as far as breaking any games. It's pretty likely I'd allow something like that at my table.
have you seen what a 2hand barbarian can do? or even a 2hand figher? Ignore dex and focus on strength and you'll put anything a summoner can do to shame.
I have seen what a level 20 2-handed fighter can do. It's amazing.
That was the same game (Savage Tide) I had a level 20 monk. It was amazing in its own way.
I played in a level 4-5 game with a 2H Barbarian and a Synthesist Summoner. I was playing an Archer Paladin in that game.
The Synthesist spent 90% of his turns whiffing madly, and the other 10% casting haste. The Barbarian and I were wrecking things left and right. Neither he nor I had characters built all that crazy. Let me look if I still have the Myth-weavers sheets for everybody.
My Paladin
The Synthesist (Myth-weavers must have been having a seizure the last time we played, his CMD and such is obviously not that high)
And I couldn't find the Barbarian's sheet, but he was pretty standard 18 Str, Power Attack, etc. Had EWP: Fauchard, iirc.
I'm not saying the synth would've been more effective than you under other circumstances, but I think it's fair to note that that's about as good as a 5th level archer paladin gets - it's really optimized for damage, with what variables it has. Meanwhile, the synth has taken both feats and evolutions that do not contribute to damage at all. A synthesist more optimized for combat would be more effective than that synthesist was, especially if you didn't fight many flying enemies. In fact, I'd say that's a pretty crappy synthesist from a pure optimization viewpoint - biped is no doubt the worst form for a synth. Swapping Improved Initiative for Power Attack, Scribe Scroll for weapon focus: Claws, and the evolutions Slam and Wings for Claws and Rend things might have looked very differently. The routine would have gone from:
Claws +9/+9 (1d4+4+1d6) and Slam +9 (1d8+4+1d6) to:Claws +8/+8/+8/+8 (1d4+8+1d6) and if two hits an additional 1d4+6 damage.
Again, I'm not saying it would outdo you damagewise, just that the reason the synth didn't do much damage at all is due to being very unoptimized for damage.
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Honestly, even if his HP isn't quite right, he was far from the kind of offensive horrific monster people have described.
Synthesists are not, as a complete whole, ridiculous to the point of needing to be banned outright. The Synthesist from that game had all kinds of fun playing the character (he was a Kamen Rider ripoff, but all that yelling about JUSTICE was pretty funny) and his miss rate wasn't really THAT bad.
I think that a Synthesist's player should sit down with the DM when they're building their eidolon, for the extra pair of eyes to look out for building it correctly, and because the DM should indeed have some say in how the character comes out. That way, the DM knows what is being put up against his challenges to the group, and the player can't just go "I have a 6 Str/Dex/Con Summoner who has ridiculous stats with his eidolon shell, aren't I so clever for gaming the system?!"
But if the DM just outright says "lol no Synthesists they're broken" while still allowing vanilla or Master Summoners, or any of the more ridiculous character builds that are totally available, it just reeks of laziness to me.
OK, it took me a while to get back to this :-)
I corrected the BAB and crit ranges for hustonj's builds. Assumptions for his builds (with the little inormation provided) as before.
Formula for dpr:
h(d+s)+tchk(d+l)
where
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
l = Critical extra damage (e.g. from burst abilities)
k = Chance to confirm critical hit
Note that I used 0.95*min(1;h) and 0.95*min(1;k) for h and k respectively to factor in that a 1 always misses.
Without PA – original hustonj build
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 23 23 18 18 13 13
Chance to hit h= 0,8092592593 0,8092592593 0,6333333333 0,6333333333 0,4574074074 0,4574074074
damage per hit d= 17,5 17,5 17,5 17,5 17,5 17,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,95 0,7740740741 0,7740740741 0,5981481481 0,5981481481
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 18,1982175926 18,1982175926 13,6571296296 13,6571296296 9,4410159465 9,4410159465
DPR: 82,5927263374
With PA – original hustonj build (-1 at/dmg) and -4
Attack bonuses 19 19 14 14 9 9
Chance to hit h= 0,6685185185 0,6685185185 0,4925925926 0,4925925926 0,3166666667 0,3166666667
damage per hit d= 25,5 21,5 25,5 21,5 25,5 21,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,8092592593 0,8092592593 0,6333333333 0,6333333333 0,4574074074 0,4574074074
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 21,1859089506 17,8626291152 14,9477222222 12,6029814815 9,1830694444 7,742587963
DPR: 83,524899177
Katana 1 Katana 2 Bite Tentacle Tentacle Tentacle Tentacle
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 23 18 20 20 20 20 20
Chance to hit h= 0,8092592593 0,6333333333 0,7037037037 0,7037037037 0,7037037037 0,7037037037 0,7037037037
damage per hit d= 27,5 27,5 14 13 13 13 13
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,15 0,15 0,05 0,05 0,05 0,05 0,05
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,7740740741 0,8444444444 0,8444444444 0,8444444444 0,8444444444 0,8444444444
Extra crit damage l= 5,5 5,5 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 26,0601712963 19,8433888889 10,26781893 9,5344032922 9,5344032922 9,5344032922 9,5344032922
DPR: 94,308992284
As we can see, the eidolon beats hustonj's TWW clearly.
Now let's see what happens when he has better weapons, more comparable to the eidolon's and a lot more adequate for his level.
Without PA
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 24 24 19 19 14 14
Chance to hit h= 0,8444444444 0,8444444444 0,6685185185 0,6685185185 0,4925925926 0,4925925926
damage per hit d= 18,5 18,5 18,5 18,5 18,5 18,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,95 0,8092592593 0,8092592593 0,6333333333 0,6333333333
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 20,0745555556 20,0745555556 15,3701692387 15,3701692387 10,8444259259 10,8444259259
DPR: 92,5783014403
With PA
Attack bonuses 20 20 15 15 10 10
Chance to hit h= 0,7037037037 0,7037037037 0,5277777778 0,5277777778 0,3518518519 0,3518518519
damage per hit d= 26,5 22,5 26,5 22,5 26,5 22,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,8444444444 0,8444444444 0,6685185185 0,6685185185 0,4925925926 0,4925925926
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 23,372345679 19,8444444444 16,7911033951 14,2565972222 10,7019650206 9,0865740741
DPR: 94,0530298354
As we can see, the eidolon beats hustonj's TWW only by a very small margin or is on par. Note that this does not take DR into account, which the TWW is more easy to overcome due to the usage of weapons. Also, the equipment is still too bad for his level.
The next levels his damage will go up, particularly on AoO due to twin blades.
Now let's see what a standard fighter with the same +4 str belt and gloves of dueling does (Build as posted before):
Without PA – Standard fighter with gloves of dueling
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 25 25 20 20 15 15
Chance to hit h= 0,8796296296 0,8796296296 0,7037037037 0,7037037037 0,5277777778 0,5277777778
damage per hit d= 20,5 20,5 20,5 20,5 20,5 20,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,95 0,8444444444 0,8444444444 0,6685185185 0,6685185185
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 23,1716435185 23,1716435185 18,0804938272 18,0804938272 12,9893441358 12,9893441358
DPR: 108,482962963
With PA – Standard fighter with gloves of dueling
Attack bonuses (w/o PA) 21 21 16 16 11 11
Chance to hit h= 0,7388888889 0,7388888889 0,562962963 0,562962963 0,387037037 0,387037037
damage per hit d= 28,5 24,5 28,5 24,5 28,5 24,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3 0,3
Critical hit bonus c= 1 1 1 1 1 1
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,8796296296 0,8796296296 0,7037037037 0,7037037037 0,5277777778 0,5277777778
Extra crit damage l= 0 0 0 0 0 0
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 26,6153935185 22,8798996914 19,4316049383 16,7043621399 12,7770601852 10,9837885802
DPR: 109,3921090535
It's already better than the TWW. A THF does even better, though:
THF Without PA
Attack bonuses 28 23 18
Chance to hit h= 0,95 0,8092592593 0,6333333333
damage per hit d= 29,5 29,5 29,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,2 0,2 0,2
Critical hit bonus c= 2 2 2
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,95 0,7740740741
Extra crit damage l= 7 7 7
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 41,2015 35,0975740741 25,8409382716
DPR: 102,1400123457
THF With PA + furious focus
Attack bonuses 28 19 14
Chance to hit h= 0,95 0,6685185185 0,4925925926
damage per hit d= 41,5 41,5 41,5
precision/extra damage s= 0 0 0
Chance for critical hit t= 0,2 0,2 0,2
Critical hit bonus c= 2 2 2
Chance to confirm a critical hit k= 0,95 0,8092592593 0,6333333333
Extra crit damage l= 7 7 7
Formula h(d+s)+thck(d+l) 56,9335 38,2390116598 26,4949135802
DPR: 121,6674252401
This is clearly a lot better. The build was posted before, it still has 3 feats left to spend on versatility, e.g. eldritch heritage, skill focus, additional traits etc.
One thing to highlight is that DR will hit the eidolon the hardest, then the TWW/Standard fighter, then the THF.
So although the synthesist is nice, it is only comparable to a rather inefficiently built fighter, and this does not take the weaknesses, social interactions etc. into account.
I don't see anything combat-wise that worries me about the synthesist, I would not ban it :-)
Regarding the OP's original assertation that synthesists are overpowered, I still reject it. The synthesist is nice, particularly when built for combat (which a multi-tentacle bite and weapon fighting monster clearly is for me). It still has weaknesses the other classes don't have, and strengths in other areas.
One argument that is repeatedly brought up is the availability of spells. This is the old caster vs. martial argument, I don't want to rehash it. Suffice to say I don't agree with blanket statements like that.
When looking at the spell list, I really disagree about the supposed greatness of it, though. It is OK, something unique is the availability of spells such as haste at lower levels than usual. This is something I find completely unnecessary. Other spells - like the repeatedly brought up teleport - are nice, but hardly balance-tipping in the game.
Personally, I prefer the bard spell list, I consider it more useful.
What I do agree with is that the class is complex and hard to get right. It's easy to make mistakes and make illegal builds. Also some things that are FAQ'd should actually be errataed, like the eidolon BAB stacking with the BAB of other classes.
Finally, since this has been brought up as well: Some classes are better for some APs, others are worse. An enchanter will easily be frustrated in a campaign full of constructs and undead, whilst it will shine in a humanoid-heavy compaign. A ranger with the wrong pick of favored enemies will have problems just like a scimitar-optimized fighter that only finds fantastic magic picks.
If there is supposed to be a problem with a *class*, then theoretical (but realistic) builds with the same assumptions (WBL, level, point-buy etc.) are legitimate. In-play experience can be used to change the assessment/weighting of relevance of certain features, such as saves, abilities etc.
Otherwise using (partially illegal or incomparably equipped) builds only speaks about the efficiency of those builds in that AP/adventure/campaign, but does not prove any kind of overpoweredness.
Well, that's my view of it :-)
Honestly, even if his HP isn't quite right, he was far from the kind of offensive horrific monster people have described.
Synthesists are not, as a complete whole, ridiculous to the point of needing to be banned outright. The Synthesist from that game had all kinds of fun playing the character (he was a Kamen Rider ripoff, but all that yelling about JUSTICE was pretty funny) and his miss rate wasn't really THAT bad.
I think that a Synthesist's player should sit down with the DM when they're building their eidolon, for the extra pair of eyes to look out for building it correctly, and because the DM should indeed have some say in how the character comes out. That way, the DM knows what is being put up against his challenges to the group, and the player can't just go "I have a 6 Str/Dex/Con Summoner who has ridiculous stats with his eidolon shell, aren't I so clever for gaming the system?!"
But if the DM just outright says "lol no Synthesists they're broken" while still allowing vanilla or Master Summoners, or any of the more ridiculous character builds that are totally available, it just reeks of laziness to me.
Hrm... this isn't good.
I've already stated that the synthesist in my game didn't dump his physical stats. And I misspoke earlier; he was middle age, not old.
I've allowed lots of crazy builds in my game because I could handle them, and I trust my players. I've never sat with them for building a character; we're all adults who have done this for years (save for my little brother). Don't forget, the synthesist player is on my side as well.
We haven't had any other summoners in a game, so I have no frame of reference for you there, and I can't tell you what I think of them. We're a group that emphasizes speedy turns, though, so it's not that likely that one of those other builds would actually be played at our table.
I've also already said that the synthesist posted above isn't broken; it's also not even slightly optimized. It's obviously possible to not break games, but what I've said is that it's very possible TO break games. And considering what I'm up against...
See my table is pretty much half casual half serious-optimizers, and a good majority of the time the character builds are made (or helped along) by one half of the table. There's a good mixed bag as far as decision-making goes, but nearly every character is built to win. That I manage to kill quite a few of them anyway says I can hold my own against the guys who look at AM BARBARIAN and think it's a good idea.
So what it comes down to is I can't let anyone make a synthesist, because we're nearly incapable of making a synthesist like the one posted above. Call it what you like, but our table is in a consensus.
So it's as I said; for my table, this is what works, YMMV, but for us, we can't do a synthesist again.
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The party needs to get over a chasm? If you can't fly them over yourself, surely there's a summon that can.
The party's cleric is down and noone else is good at the happysticks? A lowly lantern archon can heal the whole party for 1d8+3 (as well as being generally useful) and and the Azata's have more healing power.
Encountering a magical obstacle? A barbarian might be able to sunder it, the summoner might be able to dispel it, the fighter is quite helpless.
Enemy is incorporeal, or has a massive AC, or high DR? Fighter and barbarian suffers quite heavily, summoner just pulls forth a bunch of lantern archons and buffs them up.
The party is on the losing side and needs to flee? Summoner has both Haste and Teleport, fighters and barbs might be able to block the enemy for a little while (which summons can do to), but that's highly risky and very dependant on enemies having low speeds and no good forms of movement.
By the time you can summon a flying critter large enough to fly medium sized people over, your party damn well have flight methods of their own or we are not playing under the same assumptions. At these levels, enemies fly and you should have your FDS in place already.
Nobody uses UMD in your games? If your in a game where your summoner is tweaked to the max and the other none casters have no investment in UMD, then you are not playing with similar levels of optimization. Seriously, the FIRST step in optimizing a none caster is TAKE UMD.
Magic barrier and the wizard or sorcerer or cleric or oracle is away? Fine the fighter can UMD a scroll. Did I mention that UMD is the first step of optimization?
Fighter types can deal with massive AC and DR. The synth gets SHUT DOWN by them. Yeah you can spend actions to buff the party...but what is the other casters in the group doing? Incorporeal is it's own set of issues...but both the synth and fighter types should be able to deal with this one...not sure why you included it. The synth attacks should be way more effective then using buffs or summons honestly.
If things TOTALLY hit the fan, why isn't haste already ON YOU? If you need more then that, I assume your summoner is using a scroll (because why would you take that as one of the VERY few spells known for a combat beast?). Hey guess what optimized characters can also do.
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And again, what goes at your table shouldn't have to be the law of the land for every table.
Everyone who comes in claiming that such-and-such is overpowered and should be completely neutered in the game's rules can be countered by another person who has seen it used fine in a reasonable game.
Again, I'm not here to convince anyone that I'm right and that they're wrong. What I am here to say is that there is no consensus on this topic, and arguing as if there is is not the way to go about things. Obviously I and a few other people have defended the Synthesist for not being needed to be banned/nerfed into the ground in the core rules.
No one has proven that the Synthesist is a horrific game-breaking monster in all cases that it needs to be anywhere near as heavily restricted as the example in the OP. (On a related note, I believe wearing your eidolon should qualify as wearing armor, negating the Monk AC bonus.)
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So what if he's tough to kill? A good 50% of that HP that needs to be healed is not capable of being restored by any method other than Rejuvinate Eidolon, which means the Synthesist likely has even fewer of the spells he'd like to use. He still only has a good Will save, which means that even though he gets Evasion, it's not going to save him from taking damage as often from Reflex saves (and if he gets the Large or Huge evolutions, his Dexterity decreases as well!) and his Fort save isn't anything to write home about, either.
Maybe you can't stab him to death easily, but a Synthesist isn't an unstoppable juggernaut. Hell, you might be able to ignore the Synthesist through a whole fight, taking down his more dangerous companions before turning to fight the big scary Synthesist? Or better yet, kill his friends and then run away, leaving him alone and with bodies to bury.
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You've also got one unoptimised char (the Synth) and two optimised damage monkeys (Archer Paladin and 2H Barbarian). I've never described the Synth as an offensive horror, more that they're unkillable* and unbalancing in that regard.*yes, apart from if they're Coup de Graced in their sleep. Hah, we're found their Kryptonite!
Well...other then dimensional lock + dismissal/banish.
Or the AMF...
Or stat damage...obviously not con or str or cha...but dex, int and wis should still be decent targets.
Devolution will general strip the size boost down as well since size is generally the biggest evolution cost.
Or hungry pit + shield slam you in + wall of stone (but that generally kills anything not huge. Corse if your huge already, you may need devolution first.)
Energy drain/neg levels also work well. Also neg level reduce level dependent variables (like say your evolution pool...grey area I realize since it says you keep spells memorized and spell slots...evolution pool isn't spells)...so that could be a double wammy for the synth.
And again, what goes at your table shouldn't have to be the law of the land for every table.
Everyone who comes in claiming that such-and-such is overpowered and should be completely neutered in the game's rules can be countered by another person who has seen it used fine in a reasonable game.
Again, I'm not here to convince anyone that I'm right and that they're wrong. What I am here to say is that there is no consensus on this topic, and arguing as if there is is not the way to go about things. Obviously I and a few other people have defended the Synthesist for not being needed to be banned/nerfed into the ground in the core rules.
No one has proven that the Synthesist is a horrific game-breaking monster in all cases that it needs to be anywhere near as heavily restricted as the example in the OP. (On a related note, I believe wearing your eidolon should qualify as wearing armor, negating the Monk AC bonus.)
** spoiler omitted **
I believe I just said that it doesn't mean everyone needs to follow suit and ban synthesists. Heck, I said just as much even earlier in the thread. I've also said that we were wracking our collective brains for most of the game seeing if everything was as it was supposed to be. That included looking up every FAQ available and retreading and rebuilding just to be sure.
You're not the only one to come to the conclusion that my group simply didn't think it through. How you guys came to that conclusion baffles me because I've had a lot to say on this topic.
It's not one experience; it's 6 months. A lot can be learned during that time. I've just tried to explain what happened, and why, and for my trouble I get a lot of accusations playing the game incorrectly, being too lazy and all sorts of stuff, and not all from one person.
I'm not at all bothered by this, but it does make me lose interest in the forum.
And again, what goes at your table shouldn't have to be the law of the land for every table.
Everyone who comes in claiming that such-and-such is overpowered and should be completely neutered in the game's rules can be countered by another person who has seen it used fine in a reasonable game.
Again, I'm not here to convince anyone that I'm right and that they're wrong. What I am here to say is that there is no consensus on this topic, and arguing as if there is is not the way to go about things. Obviously I and a few other people have defended the Synthesist for not being needed to be banned/nerfed into the ground in the core rules.
No one has proven that the Synthesist is a horrific game-breaking monster in all cases that it needs to be anywhere near as heavily restricted as the example in the OP. (On a related note, I believe wearing your eidolon should qualify as wearing armor, negating the Monk AC bonus.)
** spoiler omitted **
I believe I just said that it doesn't mean everyone needs to follow suit and ban synthesists. Heck, I said just as much even earlier in the thread. I've also said that we were wracking our collective brains for most of the game seeing if everything was as it was supposed to be. That included looking up every FAQ available and retreading and rebuilding just to be sure.
You're not the only one to come to the conclusion that my group simply didn't think it through. How you guys came to that conclusion baffles me because I've had a lot to say on this topic.
It's not one experience; it's 6 months. A lot can be learned during that time. I've just tried to explain what happened, and why, and for my trouble I get a lot of accusations playing the game incorrectly, being too lazy and all sorts of stuff, and not all from one person.
I'm not at all bothered by this, but it does make me lose interest in the forum.
Swivl, I do not think that anyone here wants to dismiss your experience, at the very least I don't.
Some things that may be confused in this thread:
1. The context is that synthesists to be overpowered. Some here have been pretty outspoken that this was the fact and the general consensus. I and others have rejected that statement and argued why we do not agree.
2. In the above context you stated that your group has banned synthesists because they were too strong. You also asked what to do about it, but did not provide enough details on why it was a problem compared to the rest of the party. And then, whenever something was brought up, IMO you came across as either rejecting it right away or that since the game is over it does not matter anymore. But still we should accept your experience as evidence that the OP is right - or did I misunderstand that?
3. It may well be that your synthesist was quite effective in your game. There are games more suited to some classes and builds than others. A synthesist wearing some freakish tentacled armor - like the one hustonj detailed - would not work at all in the game we are playing at the moment, social interaction is important there. There are also quite a few spellcasters and strong martials which would deal with such a thing quite effectively. But if your game is primarily in a dungeon or outdoors, with plenty of time to craft rejuvenate eidolon wands etc. then the synthesist will certainly be much more efficient.
Maybe this clarifies it a bit, there definitely is no need for accusations :-)
Here's my way to fix the synthesist:
- Have him gain the eidolon's skill points as bonus skill points and the eidolon's feats as bonus feats... unless it's already the case, even though it's extremely poorly worded: "The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own." It doesn't when it's merged, but it does when it's split???
- Any gear used by the synthesist grows to appropriate size when handled.
I don't see the fuss about the synthesist's armor, because he loses that armor, as well as any enhancement, when the eidolon is formed.
I don't see the fuss about the natural attacks, since you can't make claw attacks when wielding a weapon in the same hand.
I don't see the fuss about the size, because good luck forming your eidolon in a dungeon, you'll likely be cramped.
Sangalor: it seems you've focussed entirely on DPR in your assessment. And calculated that the Snyth is behind fighters etc. That's agreed upon. I don't think you've taken into account all their other abilities.
They're unkillable. Some people think this is a problem, some don't. Can't be easy to balance encounters for though.
No, I haven't. In fact, if you read my posts in this thread, I have again and again statd that saves and other abilities, as well as taking social situations etc. into account, is of high importance. THAT has been dismissed by others, as well as stating that the synthesists DPR was higher than a fighter's. This I have disagreed on and - I believe - proven to be wrong.
Synthesists are not nearly as strong or unkillable as they are stated to be IMO. Other classes can do that as well, take monk for an example, or an inquisitor. Weaknesses of synthesists have been stated repeatedly in this thread, it's legitimate to have opponents target them just as they target the weaknesses of other classes :-)
I am not out here to convince you that your opinion is wrong. However, I disagree on the notion that there is a consensus that synthesists are overpowered, i.e. *I* have not been convinced by anything brought up in this thread - and others seem to feel the same way :-)
JiCi - how would giving an arguably overpowered class more feats help things?
You're supposed to be better when the eidolon is merged, and that includes being able to use feats you would usually have access to.
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The monk is an awful baseline to go against, however, as that class is in no way an accurate picture of what a well-balanced class should be like.
Paladins, Barbarians and the like are much more reasonable classes to compare it against... and it's not necessarily so much tougher than those classes. The Paladin has LoH and Smite Evil, the Barbarian has Rage and a boat load of amazing Rage powers, the Alchemist has Bombs, Mutagens and Discoveries, etc. You can build really good characters of any class, but no one has proven that the Synthesist really needs any changes beyond "the DM should pay the hell attention to what his players are bringing to the field."
In a game like PFS, where the DM is a judge, and not the final arbiter of the rules, it makes perfect sense to ban the Synthesist. But in a home game, the DM should tighten his belt and do some damn work.
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For my own interest, have you gamed with a decently built Synthsist in your group?
I have, and still do.
In my experience, the sythesist is indeed difficult to kill. Of course, it also tends to do less damage than other classes optimized for DPR.
Most people, including the developers, take the position that offense > defense.
Other classes can still exceed the synthesists defenses. The paladin for example. Yes, the synthesist has double his hit points. Can the synthesist swift heal hundreds of hit points per day? The paladin can certainly match the AC and saves of the synthesist.
Some classes can approach the sythesist's defenses while doing more damage. As I stated earlier in the thread, when PFS banned syntesist I converted my character to a magus. His saves, AC and DPR all increased.
Swivl, I do not think that anyone here wants to dismiss your experience, at the very least I don't....And again, what goes at your table shouldn't have to be the law of the land for every table.
Everyone who comes in claiming that such-and-such is overpowered and should be completely neutered in the game's rules can be countered by another person who has seen it used fine in a reasonable game.
Again, I'm not here to convince anyone that I'm right and that they're wrong. What I am here to say is that there is no consensus on this topic, and arguing as if there is is not the way to go about things. Obviously I and a few other people have defended the Synthesist for not being needed to be banned/nerfed into the ground in the core rules.
No one has proven that the Synthesist is a horrific game-breaking monster in all cases that it needs to be anywhere near as heavily restricted as the example in the OP. (On a related note, I believe wearing your eidolon should qualify as wearing armor, negating the Monk AC bonus.)
** spoiler omitted **
I believe I just said that it doesn't mean everyone needs to follow suit and ban synthesists. Heck, I said just as much even earlier in the thread. I've also said that we were wracking our collective brains for most of the game seeing if everything was as it was supposed to be. That included looking up every FAQ available and retreading and rebuilding just to be sure.
You're not the only one to come to the conclusion that my group simply didn't think it through. How you guys came to that conclusion baffles me because I've had a lot to say on this topic.
It's not one experience; it's 6 months. A lot can be learned during that time. I've just tried to explain what happened, and why, and for my trouble I get a lot of accusations playing the game incorrectly, being too lazy and all sorts of stuff, and not all from one person.
I'm not at all bothered by this, but it does make me lose interest in the forum.
If I came across as dismissing any possible solutions to what happened in my game, it's either because I tried them and they didn't work, or I thought that what was proposed didn't make enough of a difference or made much sense from my point of view. I'm the last person that wants to come across as bull-headed.
Limited spaces weren't that big of an obstacle. His items weren't problematic. Conditions didn't change much. He was tested fairly thoroughly, and through it all, most of the damage went to his friends, and he lost more than a few of them. The player also helped make the other characters, too, so the same level of optimization went into them.
He didn't need any wands of rejuvenate eidolon; he rarely got hit.
I will freely say that a synthesist is a good choice for CC, even though, or especially because, there are plenty of non-combat encounters in the AP.
A lot of people imagine the worst sort of synthesist is the one with loads of natural attacks and a massive strength score. That's certainly one route to an offensive monster. Try giving it just one attack, but give it grab, constrict, reach, combat reflexes, and grappling for nearly every action for something I think is much worse.
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AMF = anti magic field. Pegged by an arcane archer = dead caster really.
The hungry pit combo should all be done in one round (or the wall part anyways). So it goes like this, cast hungry pit...if you make a save, wait for next round...if you do not, cast quicken or contingency wall of stone. No chance to fly out. If you do make the save, quicken true stike and shield slam you into pit and contingency wall of stone...or conversely have your fighter shield slam the baddie into the pit then wall of stone. In either case, there should be no fly out ability. If the synth is already in flight (remember that resuming flight is a free action and can not be done in reaction to getting hit into the pit or failing a save vs the pit), then create pit and quicken fly the shield slammer (assuming they don't have ability to otherwise already), shield slam and then wall. In anycase, flight shouldn't make too much of a difference with this trick...but it is a high level one. Level 11+ I would say to do it without too much stain on resources and 15+ if you need the contingency.
Summoners can't get large until level 8 or huge until 13 so I was giving tactics for around those levels. If your synth has twinked his age and dumped physicals to get max wisdom, I suspect the enemies you face to be equally twinked. But yes, the dismissal and devolution DO target the good save so not a guarantee ender...but still valid tactics. with equally optimized opposition.
Energy drain and level drain don't work so well on anyone with the deathward armor ability on (hey guess what item your synth CAN'T use). And with evolution pool lose (if you so choose to go this route), they are hit a bit harder then melee types are by it I would say.
Early levels...hideous laughter still has a pretty good chance to get you. Even with your good save of +2 and twinked out wisdom, your only looking at +7. A well made bard should be rocking a DC 17or so hideous laughter. That is a half failure rate. Course that is better targeted on the real fighters.
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The player also helped make the other characters, too, so the same level of optimization went into them.
That doesn't actually mean they were all equally or even remotely equally optimized. I run a game for a mixed group and the casual gamers do get help. GOBS of it. But they are never nearly as optimized as the optimizer players. Your group maybe different...but the whole they got help so they are all equal isn't always the case. The only way to really show this was the case is if you post all the sheets for some peer review of the matter.
By the time you can summon a flying critter large enough to fly medium sized people over, your party damn well have flight methods of their own or we are not playing under the same assumptions.
Level 5. Dire Bat. Unless someone weighs over 260 pounds, and there's no way to boost the creature's strtength, but that's kind of a fringe case.
In a 4 person party, where one is a summoner, it's in no way guaranteed you have any other option for moving the whole party by flight. Wizards, witches and sorcerers might be able to do it depending on party makeup and other circumstances, druids can probably unless they're unusually weak and someone is unusually heavy. A few other specific builds might too. Other than that I don't really see anyone else, barring potions or scrolls that are still expensive at that level.Nobody uses UMD in your games?
Sure, but not everyone is good at it, and regardless it's pretty slow (with a +5 UMD your happy stick will heal about 1 hp/round and get stuck after average of 20 hp).
Magic barrier and the wizard or sorcerer or cleric or oracle is away? Fine the fighter can UMD a scroll. Did I mention that UMD is the first step of optimization?
The fighter that probably has 7 Cha and at most 3 or so SP/level if it's to do noticably more damage than the synth probably won't have that high UMD rating. It's much easier for the summoner with loads of skill ranks and good charisma to use that scroll, for example.
Fighter types can deal with massive AC and DR. The synth gets SHUT DOWN by them.
Depends on how high the AC or DR is. Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you'll only hit on a natural 20 due to debuffs, enemy buffs, bad luck and a smart opponent.
Spending a standard action to summon a bunch of Lantern Archons that ping the opponent for 2d6 per archon per turn isn't too shabby in those circumstances, especially not since they can also fly, heal and teleport.
Lantern Archons with teleport that lasts minutes/level also means the summoner is a useful scout.
And why wouldn't a combat beast take haste as a 2nd level spell unless the party has someone dedicated to casting it? I mean, it can even make a wand or a few scrolls and let someone else cast it as it's far cheaper for the summoner than anyone else, but it can totally use it.
If you play a synth like a fighter all the time, it will not be more impressive than a fighter. That's not the issue at hand. It's that you can do most of the things a fighter can, and a lot of other stuff the fighter struggles with.
Well...other then dimensional lock + dismissal/banish.
Less likely to succeed than one might think. With high will saves and being very SAD, the risk of the synth to get dismissed is faaaar smaller than the risk of the fighter or barbarian getting dominated.
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Level 5. Dire Bat. Unless someone weighs over 260 pounds, and there's no way to boost the creature's strtength, but that's kind of a fringe case.
In a 4 person party, where one is a summoner, it's in no way guaranteed you have any other option for moving the whole party by flight. Wizards, witches and sorcerers might be able to do it depending on party makeup and other circumstances, druids can probably unless they're unusually weak and someone is unusually heavy. A few other specific builds might too. Other than that I don't really see anyone else, barring potions or scrolls that are still expensive at that level.
Umm a medium sized critter AND GEAR generally will overweigh the bat. Well for the martials anyways. And I wasn't talking about level 5...chasms should still be an issue at those levels a bit. I was talking 9+ when you have access to large elementals anyways.
Sure, but not everyone is good at it, and regardless it's pretty slow (with a +5 UMD your happy stick will heal about 1 hp/round and get stuck after average of 20 hp).
Then your NOT OPTIMIZED. No seriously. +5 at level 5 is pathetic. Even my 7 cha fighters have better then that. +5 ranks, +3 skill focus, +2 for the two skill one, +1 trait. That is +9 at level 5...before items. Gets much better at 10.
The fighter that probably has 7 Cha and at most 3 or so SP/level if it's to do noticably more damage than the synth probably won't have that high UMD rating. It's much easier for the summoner with loads of skill ranks and good charisma to use that scroll, for example.
Your not doing it right then.
Depends on how high the AC or DR is. Sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you'll only hit on a natural 20 due to debuffs, enemy buffs, bad luck and a smart opponent.
If this is the case, then the encounter is BADLY DESIGNED. I mean stupid badly designed. I was not assuming stupid level of bad. In anycase, if this is the case, the party should just go home once the casters tried their SoD spells and failed.
And why wouldn't a combat beast take haste as a 2nd level spell unless the party has someone dedicated to casting it? I mean, it can even make a wand or a few scrolls and let someone else cast it as it's far cheaper for the summoner than anyone else, but it can totally use it.
Not talking about haste...seriously?!? I was talking about teleport.
If you play a synth like a fighter all the time, it will not be more impressive than a fighter. That's not the issue at hand. It's that you can do most of the things a fighter can, and a lot of other stuff the fighter struggles with.
A synth maybe able to do more then YOUR fighter...but mine tends to be quite capable thank you very much.
Lantern Archons with teleport that lasts minutes/level also means the summoner is a useful scout.
Not sure I would send the glowing ball of light as a scout...but meh if you DM doesn't make bad things happen from enemies getting forewarned about party, well more power to you...but trust me, any game I have ever played or run, this would be a very very bad idea. Also perception of +4 = not that great at finding dangers.
The player also helped make the other characters, too, so the same level of optimization went into them.That doesn't actually mean they were all equally or even remotely equally optimized. I run a game for a mixed group and the casual gamers do get help. GOBS of it. But they are never nearly as optimized as the optimizer players. Your group maybe different...but the whole they got help so they are all equal isn't always the case. The only way to really show this was the case is if you post all the sheets for some peer review of the matter.
I'm not exactly trying to prove anything to you, just to tell you about what I've experienced. Take it or leave it.
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Quickened True Strike... the mage is casting the True Strike on himself then gdoing the sheild bash in the same round the Pit is created?
15th level... Synth can teleport by then. None of these massively high-powered ticks actually target weaknesses though.
Sorry, these tricks are a bit, well, rubbish...
You could just Wish the Eidolon away, I guess...
By 15th level....
a magus can one-round most synthesists, hitting their touch AC with a 2 or better on all attacks.
It's the nature of the beast. Different classes are good at different things. The synthesist is hard to kill (but not impossible). The barbarian is good at sustained DPR. The Magus novas. The wizard rearranges the battlefield.
Some classes have the versatility to choose which aspect they excel at, or can choose to be decent at more than one role (fighters, paladins, druids).
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Quickened True Strike... the mage is casting the True Strike on himself then gdoing the sheild bash in the same round the Pit is created?15th level... Synth can teleport by then. None of these massively high-powered ticks actually target weaknesses though.
Sorry, these tricks are a bit, well, rubbish...
You could just Wish the Eidolon away, I guess...
No the shield bash is for IF they make their save...you have to wait a round then...but with +20 to bull rush, even wizards can decently get critters into the pit. Once the critter is in the pit, you use the quicken wall or contingency wall. Quicken via rod of course...else it be a 9th level spell :P .
Pit is an extra dimensional space...no teleport for you.
So anything that can actually hurt the synth is rubbish...well if that is the case, well no wonder the synth seems overpowered to you. Any class is OP when you say that anything that can actually hurt the class is rubbish.
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I'm not exactly trying to prove anything to you, just to tell you about what I've experienced. Take it or leave it.
I'm sorry, but what?!? Of course you are trying to prove something...otherwise why are you even wasting your breath? If all you wanted to do was provide a useless data point with no details, you were done with that goal on your first post and no more needed to be said. You continue to reply because you DO want to prove a point. Either provide what was asked for, or stop replying because honestly until you actually do give what was asked for, your not gonna prove anything to us, and you will just get more logic loop holes you post pointed back at you.
Umm a medium sized critter AND GEAR generally will overweigh the bat. Well for the martials anyways. And I wasn't talking about level 5...chasms should still be an issue at those levels a bit. I was talking 9+ when you have access to large elementals anyways.
Not really. First of it lasts for 50 rounds (that's 2000 ft with a heavy load and not running) and can be used at least 6 times per day or so (for a synth probably 7-8), secondly at 5th level, IME, it's common that someone has a heavy haversack if there's something unusually heavy around. Thirdly, someone surely has a belt of giant strength (if not the synth itself) and just throwing on that for five minutes will increase it to 350 lbs.
But the summoner (and druid) can get around those issues. Are you seriously saying that it isn't good to be able to do something partys should normally do at 9, at level 5 instead? Isn't that a benefit to the party? It's a very weird argument to say that "sure, the character can do this at level 5, but that doesn't matter since others can do it at level 9."Then your NOT OPTIMIZED. No seriously. +5 at level 5 is pathetic. Even my 7 cha fighters have better then that. +5 ranks, +3 skill focus, +2 for the two skill one, +1 trait. That is +9 at level 5...before items. Gets much better at 10.
And your DPR is higher than the synth after those two feats and the trait? How's your other skills by the way? Come on, this is silly. I mean, I try to discuss this seriously but saying that a synth's healing is irrelevant because you can spend two and a half feat to do it worse.
I mean, show us this fighter, so we have something to actually talk about. At level 5 you've spent 2.5 feats (we'll be nice and assume that the DM allows you free traits at level 1, which is an optional rule) and thus has 4 feats left for damage and all other things you want to do.
If this is the case, then the encounter is BADLY DESIGNED. I...
Or the party did something stupid or was unlucky. A few debuffs and unfavorable circumstances can lower the odds quite harshly, and not everyone designs encounters so the party should have a good chance to hit the opponents regardless of what they do.
Now, this is from memory and a few months ago so I might have gotten some detail wrong, but basically:
A succubus with a half-dozen 1st level alchemist and sorcerer members of her cult (a CR8 encounter by the book, though I ain't in love with the CR system), the end-adventure encounter for the 5th level party. They're decently optimized so I make sure the opposition is too - it try to optimize opposition to about the same degree as the party I run is optimized, though maybe a little less.
They were unlucky and a bit clumsy, allowing a sentry to alarm the succubus so she had a round to get buffed, getting an AC around 30 (don't remember exactly now, but I think it was something like: 20 base +4 Mithril Chain Shirt, +4 Scroll of Shield, +1 dex from reduce person, (+2 Protection from Good)). They where above a broken staircase and the party was below it, and while the succubus could fly down her cultists where stranded up there, pelting the party with Tanglefoot Bags, Alchemist Fire, lamp oil to make the ground slippery, Bombs and Grease spells as she tried to first Dominate the barbarian (who she didn't knew was Supersticious) and then tried to summon a Babau (which worked). After that she pelted the downed cavalier with Vampiric Touch.
The party is pretty decent on ranged (by then they where a party of barbarian, ranger4/rogue1, samurai and sorcerer) and managed to take down most of the cultists quickly, but the samurai fell on the stairs and couldn't get up during the whole fight (fullplate does bad things to your acrobatics), and everyone but the ranger managed to get entangled at some point. The barbarian was on the floor most of the fight, despite having maxed acrobatics - though that was mostly due to bad luck and being entangled. They had no way of hitting the succubus; the ranger got buffed by the sorcerer and managed to do some damage, but they ended up having to flee, leaving the samurai behind proudly buying them time, on his knees.
A bit of unluck, a bad choice here and there (when they discussed the fight afterwards the sorcerer realized she had a scroll of Fog Cloud that could probably have helped a lot if it was used on the first round). Things like this happens in my games in that group, on quite a regular basis. The whole group enjoys it, and it's probably the kind of DMing I do best (I'd love to be great at heavily social/political campaigns but I'm just not good enough an actor).
The point is that in a situation such as this, the summoner would've been hugely more useful than the cavalier; less vulnerable to grease and tanglefoot bags, probably better saves, options that don't require attack rolls etc. And this isn't such an unusual situation in our games - the party knows that buffing/debuffing greatly affects chance of success, and they know the enemy knows that too. They often try to hit the enemy with the combination of entangle+grease/oil+various other debuffs at lower levels, especially when the enemy has armor, and they expect me to do it too. They often utilize scrolls of shield and similar, and they expect me to do it too. And other times they pick a fight with someone who's a bit too strong for them - in some cases they've actually won those fights through those exact tactics (I remember a failed diplomatic meeting with an evil cleric quite clearly. It was failed in that the party ambushed the cleric on the way to the meeting and at 4th level dispatched a CR8 encounter with no-one seriously wounded through a combination of luck, surprise, and good tactics. I still have some dialouge that I never got to run, but such is the nature of our games). At other times they've lost.
Those aren't bad encounters, because the players in the group enjoy them, and that is the point of the game. Just because something is hard and the enemy is smart doesn't mean it's bad design.
Not talking about haste...seriously?!? I was talking about teleport.
Oh, okay. Since this is what you said: "If things TOTALLY hit the fan, why isn't haste already ON YOU? If you need more then that, I assume your summoner is using a scroll (because why would you take that as one of the VERY few spells known for a combat beast?). Hey guess what optimized characters can also do." I think you can understand why I thought you meant haste.
Not sure I would send the glowing ball of light as a scout...but meh if you DM doesn't make bad things happen from enemies getting forewarned about party,
Read above.
But it depends on what you scout and why you scout. Scouting isn't always sneaking up on an enemy to see what they're doing - the role generally also includes, as an example, finding the shortest overland path to a certain village. It can also serve as a messenger.A synth maybe able to do more then YOUR fighter...but mine tends to be quite capable thank you very much.
So show me your fighter then, that outdamages the synth and still is effective in the things the synth is.
AMF = anti magic field. Pegged by an arcane archer = dead caster really.
I'm not sure if I would view that as a weakness of the summoner in particular, seeing as how most other casters are punished as heavily, or even more heavily - the synthesist can just take a single move action to get out of the antimagic field and his eidolon should be back up. It does give the opponents a chance to take down the summoner with very little defences up, but it's not that easy to pull of (requiring a specific prestige class and a high-level spell directly cast from the archer - the earliest someone could pull this of is a 14th level character with a very specific build.
That doesn't actually mean they were all equally or even remotely equally optimized.
This is true. Someone that likes to optimize will often choose a more optimal kind of character too - and even if it helps the player that wants to play a dual-wielding sorcerer, it's probably going to outshine that character.
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I'm sorry, but what?!? Of course you are trying to prove something...otherwise why are you even wasting your breath? If all you wanted to do was provide a useless data point with no details, you were done with that goal on your first post and no more needed to be said. You continue to reply because you DO want to prove a point. Either provide what was asked for, or stop replying because honestly until you actually do give what was asked for, your not gonna prove anything to us, and you will just get more logic loop holes you post pointed back at you.
I'm not exactly trying to prove anything to you, just to tell you about what I've experienced. Take it or leave it.
*sigh*
I was never on a mission to prove to anyone that the premise of the thread is true, only that I felt like it was. When I started to post on my experience, questions were asked. Fantastic, a discussion.
I said pages ago that posting the offending synthesist would go beyond the scope of what I intended to do here, which was simply to share and talk about it (plus, expounded on my view that theorycraft is nigh useless and wouldn't solve anything anyway). But if you really really want a build, I've given you enough information to make one just like it over the course of my posts on this thread.
Being of opposing viewpoints doesn't mean we're antagonistic, man.
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I agree you can make the synthesist very stout and hard to kill. But that's all that's to em when you do that really.
Also don't say summoned critters to do stuff for em, because then you're not in your synthesist skin. And with your stat dumped doopey summoner that's also old aged... that's dangerous.
Like I've said before, I'd love to see this summoner synthesist that's causing a problem for your game. Or barring that, as much as you can list. Spells known, any abilities you know it did, damage it claimed etc. And what level it was doing it, race of the character ya know...
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Not really. First of it lasts for 50 rounds (that's 2000 ft with a heavy load and not running) and can be used at least 6 times per day or so (for a synth probably 7-8), secondly at 5th level, IME, it's common that someone has a heavy haversack if there's something unusually heavy around. Thirdly, someone surely has a belt of giant strength (if not the synth itself) and just throwing on that for five minutes will increase it to 350 lbs.
But the summoner (and druid) can get around those issues. Are you seriously saying that it isn't good to be able to do something partys should normally do at 9, at level 5 instead? Isn't that a benefit to the party? It's a very weird argument to say that "sure, the character can do this at level 5, but that doesn't matter since others can do it at level 9."
Well even if you take all the extra gear in separate trips, a human male fighter would weight...what 200 lbs? Full plate + heavy shield is another 65. Add some weapons and your over...unless you take a habit of removing all the armor and weapons and transfer then separately. Seriously if in that safe a situation, then it's really a none encounter and you somehow find a way across would work better. Dwarves and half orcs weight even more...but I suppose you can eek by with female or small sized martials. Belt of giant str at level 5 not a given...not by a long shot. By level 9 when you get the sure fire way to use summons to carry the party across...well they should have their own honestly.
Then your NOT OPTIMIZED. No seriously. +5 at level 5 is pathetic. Even my 7 cha fighters have better then that. +5 ranks, +3 skill focus, +2 for the two skill one, +1 trait. That is +9 at level 5...before items. Gets much better at 10.And your DPR is higher than the synth after those two feats and the trait? How's your other skills by the way? Come on, this is silly. I mean, I try to discuss this seriously but saying that a synth's healing is irrelevant because you can spend two and a half feat to do it worse.
I mean, show us this fighter, so we have something to actually talk about. At level 5 you've spent 2.5 feats (we'll be nice and assume that the DM allows you free traits at level 1, which is an optional rule) and thus has 4 feats left for damage and all other things you want to do.
Actually I made a mistake...the trait allows for class skill so it's +12 at level 5...with 7 cha. As for feats and skills...I take the 3 skill focus alternate trait for the bonus human one...so it's not just UMD I have skills in. I use the level one feat for the two skill UMD feat. I have 1,2,4 fighter feats and level 3 and 5. That is 5 feats. Power attack, weapon focus, weapon spec, furious focus...an if I need it, one for addition trait (otherwise I even have a feat to spare). My DPR is the same as any other THF fighter at level 5 honestly (remember I dumped my cha).
Or the party did something stupid or was unlucky. A few debuffs and unfavorable circumstances can lower the odds quite harshly, and not everyone designs encounters so the party should have a good chance to hit the opponents regardless of what they do.
Luck is irrelevant. The summoner can stuff their concentration check and fail to summon anything and be equally useless as the unlucky fighter. Now stupid...well I assumed NOT STUPID. If you players are stupid and that is why you think the synth is broken...I would surmise that the issue ISN'T THE SYNTH IT'S YOUR PLAYERS.
As for the haste, I said the haste is already active...so assume you have haste. You need more then haste really to get away so the second spell you mention kicks in. Summoners...especially combat monkey ones rarely take teleport as a spell known. Sorcerers rarely do as well. It's just better for wizards or scrolls honestly.
As for using the archon as a messenger...well that works pretty as they can teleport back once they send a message...but it would still have to be only 5 min away so...not seeing too much usage of this. I guess it's kind of a neat thing...but the really useful situation for this is a sneak mission and message can handle that without a glowing ball of light to cause you sneak mission to become a get the hell out of dodge mission. As for using it as map finding tool...once again, unless the town is 5 min away...in which case how the HELL DO YOU NOT KNOW...it is of little use. Neat idea to toss out...but ultimately not even a blip on the impact of a game...other then to possibly turn stealth missions into fighty ones (which last I checked was generally a BAD thing).
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AMF = anti magic field. Pegged by an arcane archer = dead caster really.I'm not sure if I would view that as a weakness of the summoner in particular, seeing as how most other casters are punished as heavily, or even more heavily - the synthesist can just take a single move action to get out of the antimagic field and his eidolon should be back up. It does give the opponents a chance to take down the summoner with very little defences up, but it's not that easy to pull of (requiring a specific prestige class and a high-level spell directly cast from the archer - the earliest someone could pull this of is a 14th level character with a very specific build.
Once again wall spells. Wall of stone = none magical wall of stone so can exist in an AMF. That can remove the ability to just take a move action to leave. Also if you've gimped your physical stats and made yourself venerable like some of the problem examples have shown up...one round of no skin = one dead character anyways. That is of course assuming not the ultra specialized AA build of course...as that one tends to just kinda kill casters at level 14+...unless your in the imbued AMF isn't tied to the arrow, it's tied to a space group. I am in the tied to arrow group...so the AA tends to me mage killers in general...just the synth makes extra easy targets. with their dumped physical stats at venerable age.
And no, not all the tactics I said were specifically for just the synth...didn't realize that was even the point (since the reply was to a CDG in their sleep which tends to work pretty well on anyone else too).
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*sigh*I was never on a mission to prove to anyone that the premise of the thread is true, only that I felt like it was. When I started to post on my experience, questions were asked. Fantastic, a discussion.
I said pages ago that posting the offending synthesist would go beyond the scope of what I intended to do here, which was simply to share and talk about it (plus, expounded on my view that theorycraft is nigh useless and wouldn't solve anything anyway). But if you really really want a build, I've given you enough information to make one just like it over the course of my posts on this thread.
Being of opposing viewpoints doesn't mean we're antagonistic, man.
Questions were asked...you never answered. Not really in anycase. That makes for a difficult discussion. So less fantastic then you may think.
Here is the thing...you had issue with the synth. Okay, there is no doubt that this happened. But the thing is...we don't really care. Not one bit. What we care about is WHY...and we don't get that because your not actually sharing. So until you actually feel like sharing, there is no discussion to be had. Not one bit.
Well even if you take all the extra gear in separate trips, a human male fighter would weight...what 200 lbs?
Average is 175 lbs. Though half-orcs may be a problem, so if your party is full of half-orcs that's an issue. Average for dwarves is 185. Then again, not all parties has a guy in full plate, especially not if they have a synthesist that can work as a front-line warrior (because while yes, a fighter can outdamage a summoner, the summoner is still no doubt a capable front-liner).
Full plate + heavy shield is another 65. Add some weapons and your over...unless you take a habit of removing all the armor and weapons and transfer then separately.
Only the armor is hard to remove, everything else is a standard action.
Seriously if in that safe a situation, then it's really a none encounter and you somehow find a way across would work better.
"Oh, there's no threat within 5 minutes, so we might as well go around where there might be threats".
Look, all I'm saying is that having access to whole-party flight in quite large amounts as early as level 5 is a benefit, and you're trying to say "no it isn't because if you're in a specific party it won't work as well". In a lot of parties it WILL work well, and for them it's a benefit. Even in the stereotypical setup of wizard/rogue/cleric/fighter, swapping the fighter for a synth will allow them to fly at level 5 quite effectively.
Belt of giant str at level 5 not a given...not by a long shot.
It's not given but not unlikely either assuming standard WBL and not living in a thorp. After getting a +1 weapon it's the most effective way to boost damage, and for many characters before that.
And you could say that one might run a low-magic game and then it's correct you might not have access to BoGS, but then again, if you don't have magic weapons the summoner is going to win out damagewise (and in general, since summoner is one of the least gear-dependant martial classes)
Actually I made a mistake...the trait allows for class skill so it's +12 at level 5...with 7 cha. As for feats and skills...I take the 3 skill focus alternate trait for the bonus human one...so it's not just UMD I have skills in. I use the level one feat for the two skill UMD feat. I have 1,2,4 fighter feats and level 3 and 5. That is 5 feats. Power attack, weapon focus, weapon spec, furious focus...an if I need it, one for addition trait (otherwise I even have a feat to spare).
Fair enough. What's your acrobatics modifier? And your perception modifier? I assume you use full-plate as that's what you mentioned above. I assume your last feat is into Iron Will, I would be very vary of playing a fighter past level 5 without iron will, though YMMV. What's your characters defenses? Post a proper character sheet - as others have done for their synths - rather than going all Shroedinger.
Once again wall spells. Wall of stone = none magical wall of stone so can exist in an AMF. That can remove the ability to just take a move action to leave.
Well, most people shut down in a walled 10ft sphere with antimagic field will have issues, that's not just the summoner you know. All casters will have as large issues, and martials nearly so though they might be able to punch or climb out of it.
one round of no skin = one dead character anyways.
What level are you talking about now? You're saying in one round the enemy should succeed in using imbue arrow to deliver an antimagic field to the summoner, casting a wall of stone to enclose it, and have some sure-fire way to kill it. While it's quite easy to kill such a character in that situation, it's not that much easier than killing a wizard or sorcerer in a similar situation and it takes a lot of work to pull of.
What you're doing now isn't finding a weakness of the summoner, it's finding a hard to pull of tactic that works against most characters that also works against the summoner. And that is at first available to a 14th level character backed by a 9th level character.
I mean, when your strategy is requiring the use of a 14th level specialized character, you might want to start looking for alternate strategies.
And no-one is arguing for the venerable total-physdumped synthesist. That's a straw man - actually, when someone took an old synth as an example everyone posting agreed that was cheesy. I think you'd have a physical array of 7/8/10 or some such.
Luck is irrelevant. The summoner can stuff their concentration check and fail to summon anything and be equally useless as the unlucky fighter.
The difference in this exact circumstance being that succeeding on a DC13 concentration check with a +10 modifier is a bit easier than succeeding on a DC17 acrobatics check with a -1 modifier (I think the cavalier's was something like 5 ranks + 1 dex -2 dex from entangling -5 MW full plate).
The _risk_ of being equally useless is far smaller.And I meant in general. Being able to succeed when the odds are against you is more important than easily succeeding when the odds are in your favor. Parties get unlucky sometimes - they roll bad on perception checks, a simple goon manages to dispel an important buff, they miss a clue or three and ends up alarming the black dragon in the swamp that they're there beforehand et cetera. Stuff like that happens to parties and being versatile allows one to do something when that happens (and possibly even preventing it happening).
If you players are stupid and that is why you think the synth is broken...I would surmise that the issue ISN'T THE SYNTH IT'S YOUR PLAYERS.
The players are not stupid, but even smart, tactical players can make an error in a heated situation. Counting on everyone taking exactly the optimal option among dozens at every turn only works in theorycrafting. We don't allow taking half an hour to calculate exactly what to use and where to place it, the group normally requires the player to have made any decisions in 15-20 seconds (which is far greater than the 6 seconds they represent)... And regardless, it wasn't the cavalier that was doing the suboptimal choice.
As for using the archon as a messenger...well that works pretty as they can teleport back once they send a message...but it would still have to be only 5 min away so...not seeing too much usage of this.
When you can move infinitely far in a single round (on the same plane though), 5 minutes is a pretty long time. Greater Teleport at will. Now, most casters can do this to some extent, as long as the messages are ready (5 rounds is enough for that) but having 5 minutes allows prolonged conversation.