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I've been playing PF for three years, and I'm still unclear as to what the Vital Strike feat does. (My parties have been more about spell and ranged combat, so no one has used Vital Strike.)
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
For years, I thought that you used it to give up your iterative attacks for one big attack. I thought that was a cool concept, but the bonus it gives doesn't seem to give back what it takes away, so I never paid it much attention.
Now, I'm seeing it in just about every NPC stat block, and I just noticed that it doesn't say "full attack" but rather "attack action." It looks like you shouldn't use it for a full attack-- but it allows you to move in and then hit hard, or use it in a surprise round.
Is that a correct reading?
Thanks!
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How would Vital Strike interact with Cleaving Finish?
How would Vital Strike interact with a touch attack, such as shocking grasp?
It doesn't interact with touch attacks at all, since it a)requires the attack standard action, and b)specifically affects weapon damage dice. It could be used to trigger the Cleaving Finish attack, but since that attack would not be made with the attack standard action, it would not get the bonus damage dice.
How would Vital Strike interact with Cleaving Finish?
It might help you in reducing your target to 0 or fewer hit points.
I don't believe you would get the bonus damage dice on your extra attack. Cleaving Finish specifies the extra attack is at highest BAB, if it included something about the extra attack using the same bonuses/penalties as the attack that caused it, then I would think VS might apply to the extra attack.
It certainly isn't clear either way, so ask your GM.
Vital Strike is good on a Rogue(Scout, Sniper) and any other Hit-&-Run build.
Another question: How does Vital Strike work on a Fighter(Mobile Fighter) where you can Full-Attack as a Standard Attack?
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Vital Strike is good on a Rogue(Scout, Sniper) and any other Hit-&-Run build.
Another question: How does Vital Strike work on a Fighter(Mobile Fighter) where you can Full-Attack as a Standard Attack?
"Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. This ability replaces armor training 3."
and"Whirlwind Blitz (Ex): At 20th level, a mobile fighter can make a full-attack action as a standard action. He may also use the Whirlwind Attack feat as a standard action. This ability replaces weapon mastery."
He's still not taking the attack action, he's taking a full attack action as a standard action so I would say it probably still doesn't work.
And really, given his other abilities, why would this guy bother with Vital Strike anyways?
A better question is, how does Vital Strike work with Spirited Charge and a lance when used by a cavalier on his mount? Remember, a mounted cavalier can still attack as a standard action while gaining the benefits of his mounts charge. Being able to hit for x6 damage at your full BAB and then use your move action to switch to a non-reach weapon is a worthwhile tactic.
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Adding extra damage in half of the rounds you do damage is hardly a bad thing. Granted, much better if you were allowed to use charge with it.
It's a bad feat chain that has you throw more in as you level.. it's a trap.. ask the fish headed admiral.
Work to get full attacks more often.
-James
"Work to get full attacks more often" - useless advice.
You're either within a 5 foot step (plus reach) of an opponent, or you aren't.
You can either move into range using a move or a double move.
No other choices.
Say you've used a move. What now? Not bother attacking?
There's the mobile fighter archetype, mounted combat, Barbarian's can get pounce, cleave and great cleave can be used to generate additional attacks on par with full attacking... There's a few ways to build up additional attacks outside of standing still.
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Mounted combat doesn't give you more full attacks and the other two options are high-level and class specific.
Cleave and great cleave do absolute nothing about granting you more full attacks.
Mounted combat (the combat type, not the feat) absolutely gives you more full attacks. You're using your mounts action to move and can full attack with ranged weapons without any special feats or abilities, and can full attack with melee weapons as soon as you qualify for Mounted Skirmisher. It's one of the reasons the Sohei archetype is so good (can take Mounted Skirmisher at 1st level) and one of the reasons that rangers and cavaliers who focus on ranged combat can be so effective.
Cleave and Great Cleave don't grant you more Full Attacks, but I never claimed they did. I said "cleave and great cleave can be used to generate additional attacks on par with full attacking" which they can under the right circumstances.
Mounted combat doesn't give you more full attacks and the other two options are high-level and class specific.
Cleave and great cleave do absolute nothing about granting you more full attacks.
Mounted combat (the combat type, not the feat) absolutely gives you more full attacks. You're using your mounts action to move and can full attack with ranged weapons without any special feats or abilities, and can full attack with melee weapons as soon as you qualify for Mounted Skirmisher. It's one of the reasons the Sohei archetype is so good (can take Mounted Skirmisher at 1st level) and one of the reasons that rangers and cavaliers who focus on ranged combat can be so effective.
Cleave and Great Cleave don't grant you more Full Attacks, but I never claimed they did. I said "cleave and great cleave can be used to generate additional attacks on par with full attacking" which they can under the right circumstances.
But a very important thing about Mounted Combat is this: it requires a mount. Yes mounted combat is often better than Vital Strike, but not indoors/caves/tunnels, in flight, or simply when you because you never bought a horse because it'd die at the sight of what you fight past level eight.
If you find yourself moving a lot and don't have a build that allows for pounce, mounts, or "skirmisher shenanigans" then Vital Strike, while not great, isn't a terrible choice.
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*** But a very important thing about Mounted Combat is this: it requires a mount. Yes mounted combat is often better than Vital Strike, but not indoors/caves/tunnels, in flight, or simply when you because you never bought a horse because it'd die at the sight of what you fight past level eight.
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Wands of Phantom Steed and a few ranks in UMD, playing small-sized characters with mounts who can enter more places, or even having your mount use the squeezing mechanic are all ways around that particular issue. The -4 to AC for squeezing is usually counter-acted by the Mounted Combat feat, and mechanically, there's really not that many places you can't squeeze a combat trained horse into.
Vital Strike is only worthwhile if you have a fairly large weapon or natural attack where doubling it goes a long way towards replacing the damage bonuses you get from things like Str and Power Attack. That generally means a d10 or d12 weapon or better, at the least (which works out to +5.5 and +7 dmg).
A T-Rex chomping on you for 4-24 with Greater Vital Strike is picking up +28 dmg by going to 12-72. Ditto dragons and the like. For such creatures, it's actually better then a Full attack in many instances, because their secondary attacks don't do as much damage.
For PC's, if you want to Vital Strike, you're basically going to have to increase your size. You're going to need a Heavy weapon (EWP), A size increase (Enlarge?), and probably Lead Blades at will.
Once you have those, a bastard sword is now a 4-32 base weapon, and Vital Striking is at +18 dmg per level. A Greatsword is 6-36 dmg, so +21 per Vital Strike level.
It still won't REPLACE a full attack, because static bonuses can get pretty huge...but it will actually be worthwhile.
Since it's hard to arrange all that, AND it's a three feat chain, most people just ignore it, or use FUrious Focus to basically the same or better effect, and FF is useful on a full attack, too.
==Aelryinth
Wands of Phantom Steed and a few ranks in UMD, playing small-sized characters with mounts who can enter more places, or even having your mount use the squeezing mechanic are all ways around that particular issue. The -4 to AC for squeezing is usually counter-acted by the Mounted Combat feat, and mechanically, there's really not that many places you can't squeeze a combat trained horse into.
Personal opinion here: Not a fan of wand summoned phantom steeds in combat, 18 AC and only 12 HP are not worth the effort to me.
Small sized characters are fun when mounted, that is true. But for all the medium characters they have to deal with squeezing (-4 Atk, -4 AC and doubled movement cost(that phantom steed would have 14 AC, and could move 25 feet a round)), space issues, and the inability to use those nifty charge bonuses because they have to pass through ally's spaces.
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Wands of Phantom Steed and a few ranks in UMD, playing small-sized characters with mounts who can enter more places, or even having your mount use the squeezing mechanic are all ways around that particular issue. The -4 to AC for squeezing is usually counter-acted by the Mounted Combat feat, and mechanically, there's really not that many places you can't squeeze a combat trained horse into.Personal opinion here: Not a fan of wand summoned phantom steeds in combat, 18 AC and only 12 HP are not worth the effort to me.
Small sized characters are fun when mounted, that is true. But for all the medium characters they have to deal with squeezing (-4 Atk, -4 AC and doubled movement cost(that phantom steed would have 14 AC, and could move 25 feet a round)), space issues, and the inability to use those nifty charge bonuses because they have to pass through ally's spaces.
I'm not saying it's perfect (there's a downside to just about every style) just that it's an applicable way to get more full attacks. 25 feet per round is still more than a lot of heavily armored guys get on foot (plus you can have your mount double move) and even if you're not getting the +2 to attack while charging, you get the +1 to hit for being mounted.
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It doesn't interact with touch attacks at all, since it a)requires the attack standard action, and b)specifically affects weapon damage dice.How would Vital Strike interact with Cleaving Finish?
How would Vital Strike interact with a touch attack, such as shocking grasp?
1. Touch attacks can be delivered as a standard action if holding the charge.
2. As per RaW the character is armed with the touch attack, which follows all the other rules for weapons. For example, touch attack damage doubles on a critical and the attack rolls can be modified by weapon focus and critical focus.
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It doesn't interact with touch attacks at all, since it a)requires the attack standard action, and b)specifically affects weapon damage dice.How would Vital Strike interact with Cleaving Finish?
How would Vital Strike interact with a touch attack, such as shocking grasp?
1. Touch attacks can be delivered as a standard action if holding the charge.
2. As per RaW the character is armed with the touch attack, which follows all the other rules for weapons. For example, touch attack damage doubles on a critical and the attack rolls can be modified by weapon focus and critical focus.
Spells are not weapons. Delivering a spell as a standard action is not the same as taking the attack standard action.
Vital Strike...
However, they changed it from Attack Action to Standard Action.
Citation? The FAQ from a week and a half ago still says it uses the attack action. It just clarifies (again, in an even more official capacity) that the attack action itself is a specific standard action.
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Mounted combat doesn't give you more full attacks and the other two options are high-level and class specific.
Cleave and great cleave do absolute nothing about granting you more full attacks.
Mounted combat (the combat type, not the feat) absolutely gives you more full attacks. You're using your mounts action to move and can full attack with ranged weapons without any special feats or abilities, and can full attack with melee weapons as soon as you qualify for Mounted Skirmisher. It's one of the reasons the Sohei archetype is so good (can take Mounted Skirmisher at 1st level) and one of the reasons that rangers and cavaliers who focus on ranged combat can be so effective.
Cleave and Great Cleave don't grant you more Full Attacks, but I never claimed they did. I said "cleave and great cleave can be used to generate additional attacks on par with full attacking" which they can under the right circumstances.This is getting silly now.
Mounted skirmisher - you need to be either a) 14th level or b) a sohei to benefit from this, lets put it to one side.
Ranged missile fire. If I'm using missile weapons I can always get a full attack sequence anyway - THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF MISSILE FIRE. Also, why archers are so dull, just take tactical movement completely out of the equation.
If you're archers never have to spend move actions, your GM is doing something wrong. Mounted Combat also has other ways to enhance your damage similar to what you'd get from a full attack, as discussed here. There are many viable options for dealing damage outside of a full attack, you just have to utilize them. If you always play dwarven paladins with a fear of being mounted, you're stuck with the Vital Strike feat chain, which at least does something for you. You could also look at taking Quickdraw and carrying a variety of weapons, including ranged and reach weapons.
I must have misread or misinterpreted the FAQ cause I could have sworn I saw something that said it was changed from attack action to standard action
You're probably thinking of the change to Sunder, which used to be an attack action, but is now in place of any attack, just like trip and disarm.
