As a short question for those people who have played with, or theory-craft E6 PF games, how would you feel about an epic feat that grants +1 BAB, and is takeable twice? This would grant full-BAB characters access to stuff that requires +8 BAB, and non-full ones to stuff up to +6 BAB, notably the extra attack that comes at BAB +6.
My question is actually two-fold, I guess:
1) Do you think non-full BAB characters (rogues, monks, bards, etc...) should gain access to that second attack in an E6 game?
2) Do you think characters should be able to pick up the +2 attack, bump in Power Attack/Combat Expertise/Reckless Abandon (from hitting BAB +8), and gain access to BAB +8 feats?
2a) Do you think it's better to instead have a feat that allows characters access to those +8 BAB feats without actually granting the +2 to BAB? (no bonus on attack rolls or with the scales-with-BAB feats)
Question: How would being able to get +2 BaB take 3/4 BaB classes like a Monk up to +7?
6th level is +4 BaB.
By typing this up at 4:30 in the morning...
-_-
I know how that is bruddah. =/
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I don't think its a really good idea, because it takes away one of the fundamental ideas behind E6 - to not let melee characters, especially fighters, fall behind. To what extend E6 succeeds at this goal is totally debatable, but giving classes like rogues or bards higher BAB takes away a vital niche of the fighter, because unlike the fighter those classes already have the ability to bring something vital for the party.
I would consider using E8 instead. It's easier to keep track because you don't have to cross-check the impact of BAB-enhancing feats on other feats and PrC's (entry requirements and possible weird outcome combinations).
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As I see it, it depends a lot on the amount of feats they gain and the speed thereof. And for me to choose, it would depend on the party make up, and intentions of the fix.
Potential repercussions:
Short run: Boost to full-bab classes as the damage increase from power attack / deadly aim outweighs an extra attack for 3/4 bab classes. This might be a problem, if you intend to help lower bab classes.
Longer run (more feats): The possibilities of getting bab+6 feats, like imp twf or many shot will make the lower BAB classes reach the abilities of the full bab classes. This might be a problem, if it, as an example, means that the roque can out-TWF the ranger, or match him almost entirely with a bow. If the group don't have characters that risk loosing their thunder this way, it is probably not a problem.
I've always felt it was a "bug" of E6 that 3/4 BAB classes end up with 4 BAB while the 1/2 BAB classes end up with 3 BAB. This puts the Wizards and Sorcerers far too close to the Rogues and Monks in terms of martial skill for my tastes. This is why I prefer E8, which ends up with the much more even 4 - 6 - 8 BAB distribution.
For E6 I'd suggest offering a feat (say, Combat Training) that allows you to increase you BAB as if you'd just gained a level in you class, and a Greater version that furthers this increase by 1 more. This would allow the classes to match the E8 BABs.
I've always (theoretically) prefered E8, partly for this reason. Sure, that second attack for a 3/4 BAB isn't likely to land, but it just might for a full BAB.
I also like running at E8; that's how I've pegged a setting.
4th level spells don't swing the concept too far (there are a couple that are problematic, mostly dimension door, but it's really at 5th level spells that I start to see paradigm shifts), so that's not an issue either.
A lot of Pathfinder classes get a feature at 8, as well, which is very nice to include.
All you need to do is accept a couple of spells that adjust the paradigm, and you can always ban them if necessary. The fact that 4th level spell slots are fairly constrained helps to mitigate this problem, though.
The BAB issue is one of the major reasons I picked E8 over E6; lots of significant class features at 8th is the other main one.
I allow players to take feats that simulate higher levels.. up to level 8. in other words characters can take extra level BAB, extra level Saving throwes, extra level caster level (gives higher caster level but not higher level spells. this means that a fighter can reach BAB 8 by taking two BAB level increases and 3/4th BAB classes can get upto 6.
I allow it because its difficult (they cant really get the back to back) and also because BAB 6 adds so much to character dynamics and tactics. I think fighters and rangers still stand head and shoulders above 3/4th classes as they have access to better feats, higher hit bonus.
also when your group has a few more full attack hitters your able to send the party against bigger threats adding at least 3 or 4 CR to the range of possible enemies.
We play an E7 campaign, allowing full BAB characters two attacks, and full casters to get 4th level spells. Many of the epic feats are each classes 8th level abilities. There is also a feat which lets characters treat their BAB as one higher for the purpose of taking other feats. This doesn't actually raise their BAB, since I feel that defeats the purpose of E7, but does allow full BAB characters to take the +8 feats and 3/4 BAB characters to take the +6 feats.
The PCs have been 7th for a little while now, actually just reaching the benchmark for their first epic feat last night. It's been working wonderfully, so far. I'm very happy with the power level that E7 sticks with.
As for myself, I'm playing with the idea of doing a E5 variant. With capstone abilities when the PC reach it's 1st epic level. I still need to figure out what would be every class capstone ability. But I can say that for the fighter, as his capstone ability, he will be the only one to get the extra attack (+6/+1) as to set it appart from the othe melee characters. Also I'm in favor to allow 3rd level arcane spells to wizard as they are moreexpert into the understanding and crafting of magic, opposed to sorcerer who still gets more spells per day as theey are more able to manipulate raw magical energy.
Feel free to comment and give me your suggestions or concerns
Thanks
I think it was even suggested as an option in the E6 write up I read a long time ago that many GMs allowed up to 8th level abilities via epic feats.
My intent is to run E6 with feats that get people to their level 8 (and in the case of sorcerer, level 9) class abilities. Casters can take a feat (with prerequisites) that grants them one lvl 4 spell as a 1/day spell-like ability, and may take the feat a few times for up to two level 4 spells usable twice per day. Capstone feats are divided into a sort of capstone series, where multiple level 7 and 8 abilities from a class are divided into a few different feats, unless they are fairly weak, in which case some may be lumped together.
My questions were ONLY really whether you feel that it is fair/unfair for 3/4 BAB character to miss out on that iterative attack (and BAB +6 requiring feats), whether you feel that full BAB characters gaining access to BAB +8 requiring feats (and gaining another 2-3 damage, or 1 AC, or 1 attack, out of the BAB scaling feats) is fair/balanced, and whether everyone possibly getting +2 attack is going to be balanced in the E6 system (if the players so choose).
I suppose a final question would be: if you do feel that players should have access to those 2 more points of BAB, do you think that one feat for +1 is okay in this system, or do you think it should really be one feat for +2 BAB?
I honestly think you save yourself ALOT of work if you just go to level 8 in this case. One thing you can do is to simply make 4th level spells unavaialable except with the method you mention, and 7th and 8th level casters just get 4th level spell SLOTS to be used with metamagic.
There are ALOT of natural captstones at 8th level in pathfinder, you can relax the need to create 100 new feats to account for all the abilities that show up at 7th or 8th level or those BAB increases.
Without 4th level spells and just having 4th level spell slots, there isnt much of a difference between 6th and 8th level except what you already intend to overcome using feats. So why not just go to 8th level?
I honestly think you save yourself ALOT of work if you just go to level 8 in this case. One thing you can do is to simply make 4th level spells unavaialable except with the method you mention, and 7th and 8th level casters just get 4th level spell SLOTS to be used with metamagic.
There are ALOT of natural captstones at 8th level in pathfinder, you can relax the need to create 100 new feats to account for all the abilities that show up at 7th or 8th level or those BAB increases.
Without 4th level spells and just having 4th level spell slots, there isnt much of a difference between 6th and 8th level except what you already intend to overcome using feats. So why not just go to 8th level?
Well, I don't really want you guys getting the extra HP that comes with those two levels. Initially, it wasn't something I was concerned with, but after thinking about the effects of the E6 idea some more, I like that it keeps everyone kind of "in range" of the normal populace, and the more HP you get, the farther you are from that. That's one thing.
Another, is that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that everyone but casters can get their level 7 and 8 stuff, while casters get a piece of their stuff and then they have to take feats to get what everyone else is getting normally.
Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, there are other things that come with level 8 that can be a little problematic, like access to +4 and +6 stat items (the only difference between +2 and the others is the gold piece value). I could DM fiat that, but again, that's imposing restrictions.
Finally, my impression of the E6 idea is that it benefits from providing "epic feats" that essentially advance your character a bit beyond level 6, other than simply allowing you to just accrue more of the standard game feats than you would have normally. Well, I know that I don't want to grant access to level 9+ feats and spells, so what do you replace all the capstone and minor advancement feats with if you do an E8 game?
I'm definitely on the fence regarding E6 vs. E8, but I'm pretty sure I'd rather go with 6 and put in a little extra effort to open up some stuff on the way to 8th than start at 8th, restrict some 7 and 8 stuff, and then put in some of the same effort anyway to provide post-8 options to everyone.
It is perfectly fair that 3/4 BAB people miss the iterative attack. In E6 that extra attack is one of the perks for sticking with pure warrior classes. Sort of like a nice capstone for pure fightery types.
Well, I don't really want you guys getting the extra HP that comes with those two levels. Initially, it wasn't something I was concerned with, but after thinking about the effects of the E6 idea some more, I like that it keeps everyone kind of "in range" of the normal populace, and the more HP you get, the farther you are from that. That's one thing.
I dont know if 10-15 hp is worth the headaches it causes but in the end you are the one that would have to do the extra work.
Another, is that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that everyone but casters can get their level 7 and 8 stuff, while casters get a piece of their stuff and then they have to take feats to get what everyone else is getting normally.
Ewhatever whether 6 or 8 is meant to be a kick in the pants of casters. Its supposed to keep the game in the range they are least comfortable and most vulnerable. Any reasonable player would be quite happy to get the spell slots, the caster level and the advancement of abilities that are level dependant.
Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, there are other things that come with level 8 that can be a little problematic, like access to +4 and +6 stat items (the only difference between +2 and the others is the gold piece value). I could DM fiat that, but again, that's imposing restrictions.
I dont follow, how does being a higher level give access magic items of any kind? Besides arent you planning to use alternate magic item rules?
Finally, my impression of the E6 idea is that it benefits from providing "epic feats" that essentially advance your character a bit beyond level 6, other than simply allowing you to just accrue more of the standard game feats than you would have normally. Well, I know that I don't want to grant access to level 9+ feats and spells, so what do you replace all the capstone and minor advancement feats with if you do an E8 game?
The reason E6 needs those capstone feats is because almost no one gets anything interesting at 6th level. For the majority of classes, something cool comes at 8th level. The beauty (in my opinion) of E8 is you dont HAVE to make those epic feats. Call it done at 8th level except in very specific cases. Characters can take whatever feats they normally qualify for from there. I dont think post 8 options are required at all at that point, class advancement has reached a natural stoping point in most cases.
I'm definitely on the fence regarding E6 vs. E8, but I'm pretty sure I'd rather go with 6 and put in a little extra effort to open up some stuff on the way to 8th than start at 8th, restrict some 7 and 8 stuff, and then put in some of the same effort anyway to provide post-8 options to everyone.
Well like I said, I dont think you have to put in the effort for the post 8 things, but if you are set on E6, I have a couple questions.
1. What about caster level? If you are going to allow feats to advance BAB, what about caster level? Casters obviously dont attack with their BAB, they do it with their spells. Would there be a feat to advance this? Would it cound towards qualifying for feats? Raise the potency of spells?
2. What about level dependant abilites? Something not considered in the original design of E6 is all the level dependant abilities that exist in pathfinder. For instance, channel energy, would that have a feat to advance it? What about smite? What about an inquisitors judgement potency? Or the damage done by an elemental bloodline sorcerors energy attack? (this is why i think going E8 is alot easier then E6+7th and 8th level ability feats, there are alot more level dependant things in pathfinder that the original creators of E6 never considered in their design).
I dont know if 10-15 hp is worth the headaches it causes but in the end you are the one that would have to do the extra work.
That's up for debate. I'd consider maybe allowing class features to advance to 8 on their own I guess, but stopping HD progression...I dunno. Really, though, for some characters you're looking at maybe an extra 8 HP, while for others it may be as much as 30 more, and that IS a big deal. Just not sure about this point.
Ewhatever whether 6 or 8 is meant to be a kick in the pants of casters. Its supposed to keep the game in the range they are least comfortable and most vulnerable. Any reasonable player would be quite happy to get the spell slots, the caster level and the advancement of abilities that are level dependant.
Well, while that is partly true, it isn't the express purpose of going E6, even though you know my feelings on DMing high-level casters (those sentiments extend to non-casters classes as well, albeit less so), but there's still a philosophical difference between everyone stopping at 6, and everyone going to 8, but casters not gaining their key class abilities at 7 and 8. If you'd be okay with that (and I know you're the most likely to get bent out of shape at something targeted at nerfing casters specifically), then I think I'd be okay with going E8, but requiring casters to spend feats to gain lvl 4 spells (they'd still get the spell slots probably to be used for metamagic'ed lower level spells or just more copies of lower level spells).
I dont follow, how does being a higher level give access magic items of any kind? Besides arent you planning to use alternate magic item rules?
Probably, but I'm not positive. Likely I guess, since I doubt anyone would be picking up a crafting feat in this game besides Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion and Craft Wand in any case, though I do plan on giving everyone more downtime than has been customary in my campaigns.
Well like I said, I dont think you have to put in the effort for the post 8 things, but if you are set on E6, I have a couple questions.
1. What about caster level? If you are going to allow feats to advance BAB, what about caster level? Casters obviously dont attack with their BAB, they do it with their spells. Would there be a feat to advance this? Would it cound towards qualifying for feats? Raise the potency of spells?
2. What about level dependant abilites? Something not considered in the original design of E6 is all the level dependant abilities that exist in pathfinder. For instance, channel energy, would that have a feat to advance it? What about smite? What about an inquisitors judgement potency? Or the damage done by an elemental bloodline sorcerors energy attack? (this is why i think going E8 is alot easier then E6+7th and 8th level ability feats, there are alot more level dependant things in pathfinder that the original creators of E6 never considered in their design).
Also things I'm torn on.
1) Caster level has a more dramatic effect than increases to BAB...+2d6 (or more) damage is a bigger deal than +2/+3 damage from Power Attack, not to mention things like Resist Energy going from 10 to 20 points.2) Shrug. I hadn't given it much thought.
Honestly, after reading some more comments regarding BAB in E6/8, I'm inclined to feel that no BAB increases are necessary in E6 anyway...it leaves full-BAB characters as the only ones with an extra swing, which means that most characters aren't seriously outpacing monsters in that range in terms of action economy.
You make some good points, and I'm less sure about whether I want to do E6 or E8 now than I was before. We have some time to continue discussing this...I'm doing work on fleshing out the world a bit, writing up the beginning of the campaign, coming up with campaign traits and such, and have to figure out how I want to cap the last campaign before we get started on this one still. I figure that, at the earliest, we won't be starting this game until mid-January, and more likely not until Wintereenmas (I'd ideally like to get at least one session in that week).
I looked into E6 with Pathfinder recently and came to the opinion that it would work smoothest if your use 8th level as cap instead of 6th (so P8).
You no longer have to think about extra feats to give those nice 7th or 8th level abilities you know you want to include, but...
Simply cap at 8th and make NO extra feats for higher level abilities!
The characters are a bit stronger than at 6th obviously (two more levels of Hit Dice, at bit higher skills/BAB etc. but nothing really OP)
But the spellcasters have some more slots to play with and the BABs are better spread (4-6-8 instead of 3-4-6)
One thing though:
- Spellcasters DO get 4th level slots BUT DON'T get 4th level spells!
- Some more or less important utility spells should be accessable by feats (restoration, stone to flesh) but still as nerfed versions with long casting time.
- Other than that, the 4th level slots are for metamagic fun (and rituals) only.
...
Maybe nerfing the Hit Points too might be worth thinking about...
Thread has convinced me to go low BAB = +1/3 per level. FYI I use fractional stats.
So, I was thinking that to resolve the 6 vs. 8 issue, I'd halt progression at 6, but give two sort of capstone feats to advance characters to 8th level.
Class Advancement
Requirements: 6 ranks and Skill Focus in a class skill for chosen class, Character level 6th,
Benefits: Choose a class that you have at least 1 level in. You gain the class features and spell slots (but not spells of a higher level than 3rd; 4th level slots may be used for metamagic'ed spells or to hold lower level spells you wish to cast more often) of the next highest level in that class, including increasing level-dependent benefits such such as smite evil damage. If a feat has a class level requirement, you count as having one higher level in the chosen class for meeting such requirements.
Special: If cast spells from a limited list of spells known (such as a sorcerer), you may exchange one spell you know for another spell of the same level once for every other feat gained after attaining 6th level.
Improved Class Advancement
Requirements: Class Advancement, 6 ranks and Skill Focus in a class skill for chosen class, Character level 6th.
Benefits: You gain the class features and spell slots (but not spells of a higher level) of the next highest level in the chosen class. If a feat has a class level requirement, you count as having one higher level in the chosen class for meeting such requirements. The benefits of this feat stack with those of Class Advancement.
Special: Sorcerers treat their level 9 Bloodline abilities as being level 8 for the purposes of this feat.
Yes, I'm aware that I worded these such that characters could gain class features in a class that they don't have 6 levels in. I figured that it would be good to not make this overly antagonistic toward multiclassing.
And a couple of feats to fill in the other stuff:
Advanced Combat Prowess
Requirements: Improved Class Advancement, Character level 6th.
Benefit: Treat your BAB as two higher for the purposes of qualifying for feats. This does not grant you an increased bonus on your attack rolls, improve the effects of feats like Power Attack, or grant you additional iterative attacks.
Advanced Spell Casting Prowess
Requirements: Improved Class Advancement, Character level 6th.
Benefit: Treat your caster level as two higher for the purposes of qualifying for feats. This does not grant you increased spell damage level-dependent spell benefits, or bonuses on Concentration or spell penetration checks.
Greater Spell Knowledge
Requirements: Class Advancement, Spellcraft 6 ranks, Skill Focus: Spellcraft, max caster level for your class at 6th level (CL 6 for full casters, lower for secondary casters like paladins), Character level 6th.
Benefits: Select one spell of a spell level 1 higher than the highest level of spells you can cast (and no greater than 4th level). You gain the use of that spell once per day as a spell-like ability.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, you may choose a new spell to gain the use of once per day, or may increase the number of uses per day of a spell you have selected previously by 1. You may not take this feat more than 4 times.
Skill Beyond Your Years
Prerequisites: Character level 6th.
Benefit: Upon taking this feat you acquire 4 skill ranks. You may use these points to raise a skill up to 8 ranks.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times.
Also, probably going to include these as well:
Quick Strike
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefits: As a standard action you may make one attack with a weapon held in each hand, as though using Two-Weapon Fighting.
Special: A monk with Advanced Combat Prowess and the Flurry of Blows class feature may select this feat without meeting the other prerequisites, and may use a standard action to make two Flurry attacks.
Mobile Combatant
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and one of: Cleave, Vital Strike, or Quick Strike
Benefits: You may use any one of the prerequisite feats in conjunction with Spring Attack, but must subtract 5 feet from your total allowable movement.
Just about every week or so, someone wants to add another "feature" to E6.
If you're having problems with the limited feature set of E6, then perhaps a capped game style really isn't for you in the first place?
I haven't played with it yet, but I like what I'm seeing with E6, but acknowledge that level 8 makes for a better mechanical stopping point in Pathfinder, while not wanting to allow the other power that comes with simply leveling to 8. Besides, the E6 "core rules" include capstone feats that are doing basically what I'm laying out here--I've just removed the 2-4 feats per class to obtain pieces of their further class abilities for two feats (with prerequisites) to do just that.
Where is the big difference between stopping at 6th and adding a lot of special feats to get to 8th or simple go to 8th?
What I can think of:
- BAB: difference between [+3(+2), +4, +6] or [+3, +6, +8] isn't that big a deal and it allows the full BABs for a half decent second attack.
- Skill ranks: Max 8 instead of 6. Also no big deal. Feats like Skill Focus and the like are only improved with rank 10 so no threat there.
(Unless you use the +2 skill rank feat - which I wouldn't.)
- Hit Points: I can see the reservation here, but there is an easy way to handle this: Don't roll them. Simply give every character (and monster!) 50% of the maximum per hit die.
d6 = 3 hp, d8 = 4 hp, d10 = 5 hp, d12 = 6 hp.
This way, the characters do improve but are staying closer to the "normal people". Maybe even lower it by 1 point across the board.
- Saves: Only Good saves are improved and only by +1 so NO problem here.
- Barbarian Powers: 8th level powers are available. I don't know them all but I see them as the barbarians capstone abilities. With "improved DR" his DR could be bumped to DR 4/- with 3 feats. Might this be a problem?
- 4th level spells. Simply don't allow them as I mentioned before. Give the spell slots for metamagic and rituals and only include specific important spells as feats. Done.
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Honestly, just make a Capstone feat that gives you +1 BAB, however, they can only take it once every 5 feats (which is the equivalent of a level anyways), but they can only take it twice. This gives the 3/4 two attacks a round, and casters are +5. Meanwhile, have it have certain prerequisites so that it costs them other feats in order to gain it. Kind of like how in order to get an actual +1 to your ability stats, you have to take two feats. Meanwhile the melee classes with +6/+1 already can do whatever they want for feats.
As for hp, you just take more Toughness. One of my favorite feats for E6 is from Unearthed Arcana. It's called Skill Knowledge. It allows you to take two class skills from another class (say rogue) and make them class skill for another class (fighter, for example). Or, you can turn one cross-class skill into a class skill. I always loved it for role playing purposes. Character's got a feat coming up, and they've been doing a lot of reading lately. Maybe they want to learn a new language because they're tired of being the only one in the group who can't speak giant or orc. For purposes of Pathfinder this could be changed to two cross-class skills are now class skills. Lots of trekking through the forest? Give them Survival. They've been aiding the cleric with patching up the wounded? Give them Heal. Like I said, really good for role-playing purposes.