Really struggling with the Arcane Duelist...


Advice


As some of you may know, I make the characters for my group (in cooperation with and constant input from the player in question)... I'm putting together a party to run through the Second Darkness AP and as it stands now, this is what we have:
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Half-Elven Summoner - Built as a melee type and uses his eidolon as a mount.
Half-Elven Master Summoner - Twin sister to the Summoner and has a scout-styled eidolon.
Elven Void Mage & Spell Binder - Seemed to suit the overall theme and feel of the campaign.

Now our fourth player usually plays some variant of a bard and he's tried several in the past but now he's expressed an interest in the Arcane Duelist and I've been trying to lock down the build.

The races being considered are Aasimar (Angel-Blooded) and Human, in both instances partially for their favored class options. Now I'm looking at the class and one fo the first things I note is that it definitely seems more intended towards melee than ranged with the Arcane Armor feature and the Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats. I could make it a switch-hitter, but for Disruptive and Spellbreaker to really work it seems you need the Step-Up line and archery is already so feat dependent... Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon also seem out due to the necessity of being and remaining adjacent to your targets.

The approach I'm considering taking is making him a 'mage-killer' of sorts, slipping through the melee to get to whatever spellcasters are threatening and making their lives miserable, but even that requires so many feats, and the mounted eidolon's mobility might make him a better option for that... not to mention that every fight won't necessarily feature a caster. Face-wise, the Summoner is going to take ranks in Intimidate while the Master Summoner is going to take ranks in Diplomacy and the Arcane Duelist loses its Bardic Knowledge ability - I'm really in a bit of a quandry here as to the role the character should play in the group apart from healer, buffer and maybe 'defend the wizard'.

This is what I've got so far but by no means is any of this etched into stone:

Aasimar (Angel Blooded) Arcane Duelist
Favored class option for Bards - Inspire Courage

Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 14 (+2 racial bonus, +1 st 4th and 8th level)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 14 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 12th, 16th and 20th level)

Feats:
1st - Combat Reflexes
1st - Arcane Strike*
2nd - Combat Casting*
3rd - Weapon Focus: Falchion
5th - Power Attack
6th - Disruptive*
7th - Step Up
9th - Following Step
10th - Spellbreaker*
11th - Discordant Voice
13th - Step Up and Strike
14th - Penetrating Strike*
15th - Standstill
17th - Iron Will
18th - Greater Penetrating Strike*
19th - Lightning Reflexes

* Arcane Duelist bonus feats

Grand Lodge

I would concentrate on being a roguelike striker with bit of anti-caster specialization through the feats above.

A spell to consider would be Dazzling Display, you'd however want the feats to improve your feinting ability. When you get 4th level spells, Dimension Door along with Dimensional Agility should help the mobility problem immensely.

The Arcane Duellist isn't really aimed at archery. I'd pack a composite mighty bow just so that you can do some damage at range, but otherwise I probably wouldn't make any further investment in developing that side.

The Exchange

The Arcane Duelist is generally better as a sword 'n' board type - once he hits level 5 he can use the hand he's holding his weapon in for somatic components via his arcane bond class feature and, along with his eventual arcane armour class feature, can maintain a pretty decent AC as he levels. He's the front-line melee version of a Bard.


LazarX wrote:

I would concentrate on being a roguelike striker with bit of anti-caster specialization through the feats above.

A spell to consider would be Dazzling Display, you'd however want the feats to improve your feinting ability. When you get 4th level spells, Dimension Door along with Dimensional Agility should help the mobility problem immensely.

The Arcane Duellist isn't really aimed at archery. I'd pack a composite mighty bow just so that you can do some damage at range, but otherwise I probably wouldn't make any further investment in developing that side.

You mean the feat Dazzling Display, correct?

I think that's a good idea - opening round of combat he starts buffing with Inspire Courage and debuffs with Dazzling Display... after that its all gravy.

The Summoner is going to get Dreadful carnage for his Eidolon, but that won't really come to fruition until higher levels, at lower levels Dazzling Display is an excellent choice for a Bard I think.

I'm leaning towards going with a reach weapon now and dropping the Step-Up line to free up some additional options...

Feats:
1st - Skill Focus: Intimidate
1st - Arcane Strike*
2nd - Combat Casting*
3rd - Weapon Focus
5th - Dazzling Display
6th - Disruptive*
7th - Combat Reflexes
9th - Standstill
10th - Spellbreaker*
11th - Discordant Voice
13th - Power Attack
14th - Penetrating Strike*
15th - Furious Focus
17th - Iron Will
18th - Greater Penetrating Strike*
19th - Lightning Reflexes

I figure he can fight with a reach weapon and wear a spiked gauntlet or something similar for threatening adjacent spaces. Standstill really needs to apply to threatened spaces, not adjacent ones.


I hope he means the spell Burning Invective, which duplicates Dazzling Display using a resource more numerous than feats with better action economy and a fire damage rider.

That frees up two feat slots and innumerable move actions. A 30' range isn't as big as you think.

You're delaying Power Attack until level 13. That's crazy. It should be your level 3 feat.

Stand Still doesn't work with reach weapons. It requires adjacency.

You have a fast will save progression. If you need Iron Will you need it early because of a low wisdom. By level 17 it doesn't matter.

You have a fast reflex save progression and they don't usually matter as much as fort and will saves. I wouldn't touch Lightning Reflexes at all unless you dump dex and take it early. I would not dump dex on a bard.

Furious Focus can possibly stand to be dropped. CRB bards power attacked without it. You'll know if you need it.

That frees up your level 5, 9, 13, 15, 17, and 19 feats. If Combat Reflexes was just for Stand Still it frees up the level 7 feat as well.

You can either go down the whip mastery line to improved whip mastery (3 feats including weapon focus) to threaten 5-10' with the same weapon, and a one handed one at that; or you can go for Eldritch Heritage, which will involve a different skill focus; or consider proficiency in a polearm better than spear. May as well go for Fauchard or Kusarigama. I'm pretty sure the latter is supposed to have the sickle end with 5' reach and the chain with 10' reach. The Meteor Hammer historically is a variable reach weapon, but the rules give no indication of this.

Orc is a good bloodline for Strength of the Beast and Power of Giants and Touch of Rage isn't going to be a bad one if you wind up in narrow corridors where you can't hit the enemy without a cover penalty or if you can get Quicken SLA.

If you choose to be human the Imperious Bloodline has advantages as well. Heroic Echo synergizes very well with being a bard. The first and third eldritch heritage feats are less good, but depending on your encounter tempo Heroic Echo might well be good enough to justify delaying Discordant Voice.

Another feat to look at is Eschew Materials. You lose a lot of the advantage of performing somatic components with your weapon if you still have to fiddle with material components.


Atarlost - okay, that's a lot of information to process there, and some really good stuff as well.

I assume you mean Blistering Invective, and I agree that its an excellent option here, but it chews up a second level spell slots and spells generally seem more dear. There was a good chance I was going to take Weapon Focus anyway, so the feat doesn't seem too expensive a price to pay... let's say three encounters a session, three 2nd level spells or one feat seems like a no brainer to me.

I delayed Power Attack in part because I worry some about my accuracy since I'm not a full BAB'er and I wanted time for some buffs to be able to step in and mitigate some of that loss.

I know Standstill doesn't work with reach weapons, which is why I mentioned wearing a cestus or spiked gauntlet - the attack has to hit, nto necessarily deal a whole lot of damage for the feat to be useful.

I'm not entirely sure we're even going to get to level 17 and 19 (though I hope so), and often times when I select save boosting feats I choose something I'm already strong in... a small bonus to a really crappy save is basically no benefit at all in my opinion.

I wasn't really sold on Furious Focus to be honest.

A couple of things - the player has made it clear that he has absolutely nop desire to play the whip games, he wants a 'real' weapon-weilder... as far as Eldritch heritage feats, I'm a huge fan of them and use them often (our Summoner is of the Orc Bloodline), but I never even once considered the Imperious Bloodline - perhaps because I knew that it was a human-only option and this character was likely going to be an Aasimar. Regardless, I think you're absolutely correct in suggesting it and I'm glad that you did, I'm going to be looking at it much closer and considering going Human after all and using Focused Study. Study of Humanity is meh but I could see some uses of Heroic Legends as well, especially if the benefits stack with Bardic Performance (which I think they will).

We basically give everyone Eschew Materials for free in our campaign... tracking spell components and using them is about as exciting as tracking food consumption... there are occasions to do it, but not very often.

I'm going to look hard at this and repost something in a little bit. Your continued critique would be appreciated.

EDIT: Ugh... I just looked and the Heroic Echoes ability applies to Magic Items, Spells or Spell-Like abilitiies... NOT Supernatural Abilities which Inspire Courage is. That turns a potentially awesome ability into a nice rider for the Good Hope spell and that's about it - unless I'm missing something else?

Grand Lodge

Wiggz wrote:


You mean the feat Dazzling Display, correct?

Actually I was refering to this spell below but that feat certainly merits consideration.

Dazzling Blade

School illusion (pattern); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING

Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range Touch
Target one metal weapon
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (see text); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

Dazzling blade makes a weapon appear dazzlingly shiny, as if crafted from pure silver and heavily polished. In combat, the flashing movements of a dazzling blade become almost hypnotic. The wielder of a weapon under the effects of dazzling blade gains a +1 competence bonus on all Bluff checks made to feint in combat. The wielder also gains a +1 competence bonus on all CMB checks made to disarm a foe, and a +1 competence bonus to his CMD against disarm attempts made against the weapon bearing the dazzling blade effect. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 caster levels, to a maximum bonus of +5 at 12th level.

The wielder of a dazzling blade can discharge the spell into a blinding burst of silvery light as a free action. The wielder selects an adjacent opponent as the focal point of this burst of light—that creature must make a Will save to avoid being blinded for 1 round (with a successful save, the creature is instead dazzled for 1 round).

Despite its shiny appearance, a dazzling blade grants no extra benefit against creatures that are vulnerable to silver.


This might be a good place to get some of that "player input". What does the player actually want to do with the character?


Bards get the whip Prof as part of their class, I'd have him use the whip feat chain to do the spell breaker /disruptive stuff.

alternatively, a Battle herald is a "bard variant" and could be an interesting route for him to go, more combat focused, a lot less spells, bust still plenty performance type stuff. Maybe push him slightly out of his envelope?


Wiggz wrote:
Ugh... I just looked and the Heroic Echoes ability applies to Magic Items, Spells or Spell-Like abilitiies... NOT Supernatural Abilities which Inspire Courage is. That turns a potentially awesome ability into a nice rider for the Good Hope spell and that's about it - unless I'm missing something else?

No. I'm the one who missed that. Probably not a good choice then.

On the saves, good saves progress at 2/3 level+2, bad saves at 1/3 level, and save DCs at 1/2 level. Add in resistance bonuses and a good save will overpower save DCs at high levels without help while slow saves barely keep up even with resistance bonuses. Also, the +2 is more significant at lower levels when the level contribution is smaller and your stats haven't been boosted.

The Eschew Materials thing is about not having a hand free, not about not tracking components. You're not supposed to even pretend to track inexpensive components in Pathfinder, but retrieving material components is supposed to take a free hand. RAI you can clearly use the same hand for somatic and material components, otherwise the Magus doesn't function, but spells with a material but no somatic component need a free hand.


Pendagast wrote:
Bards get the whip Prof as part of their class, I'd have him use the whip feat chain to do the spell breaker /disruptive stuff.

With a whip threatening at 5', 10' and 15' that's an excellent point, even if he carries one only for dealing with casters... I'll mention that to him and see if he is willing to back off the ledge.

I assume a Whip can be used with Arcane Strike... can it be used with Power Attack as well I wonder?


I dunno, why would you want power attack anyway? bard doesn't have a lot of BAB to sacrifice to begin with.

I dont see why I wouldn't be compatible with arcane strike and blade thirst.

Grand Lodge

Wiggz wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
Bards get the whip Prof as part of their class, I'd have him use the whip feat chain to do the spell breaker /disruptive stuff.

With a whip threatening at 5', 10' and 15' that's an excellent point, even if he carries one only for dealing with casters... I'll mention that to him and see if he is willing to back off the ledge.

I assume a Whip can be used with Arcane Strike... can it be used with Power Attack as well I wonder?

I would never ever use Power Attack with a medium or worse BAB class. Bards are not characters for indulging with DPR races with fighters. What they are are folks with some unique talents and those strengths are what should be emphasied on.


LazarX wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
Bards get the whip Prof as part of their class, I'd have him use the whip feat chain to do the spell breaker /disruptive stuff.

With a whip threatening at 5', 10' and 15' that's an excellent point, even if he carries one only for dealing with casters... I'll mention that to him and see if he is willing to back off the ledge.

I assume a Whip can be used with Arcane Strike... can it be used with Power Attack as well I wonder?

I would never ever use Power Attack with a medium or worse BAB class. Bards are not characters for indulging with DPR races with fighters. What they are are folks with some unique talents and those strengths are what should be emphasied on.

Well, for what its worth, the party of four should have a ton of buffs going - the Bard's Inspire Courage and in all likelihood Good Hope, Haste from one of the Summoners and then the Wizard's Aura of Prescience probably at a minimum. They all stack and at 8th level that's around an additional +7 attack bonus or so.

I don't want this guy to be anything he's not, but what he is, I want him to be the best he can be at it.


Being that the bard is all about performance, and whip is a performance capable weapon, the dazzling display feat chain could be much fun (along with the whip mastery feat chain)

Maybe you should wear a little black mask and ask antonio banderas where he gets those little thin mustaches?


Alright, I talked to the player and I'm reopening this as he is growing excited over the idea of a guy who fights with a barbed or bladed whip and a shield. I also pointed out to him the appeal of provoking AoO's by tripping or dragging a foe who's surrounded by summoned monsters. All of this has forced me to look at the requirements for an effective whip build and I'm reminded once more of my frustration for some of the nuances of Pathfinder's combat rules, in particular Weapon Finnesse (which should be a weapon trait, not a feat, and Agile Maneuvers should be folded in along with it) as well as the obstacle of having to get so many specific feats and all of them requiring +1 BAB, bumping everything back 2 or more levels. Its frustrating to know you won't really even be effective with your whip until 9th level at the earliest...

At any rate, I'm looking at going seven levels of Bard to get a fair amount of spell-casting in and to get Bardic Performance as a move action, then grabbing two levels of Fighter to help get over the feat tax hump then back to Bard. Any advice would be most welcome:

Human 18th level Bard (Arcane Duelist) / 2nd level Fighter (Lore Warden)
Focused Study, Human favored class option for Bards, either Sliver-Tongued or Heart of the Streets

Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR 10
DEX 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th and 8th level)
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 14 (+1 at 12th, 16th and 20th level)

Traits:
Magical Knack
Reactionary

Feats:
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Skill Focus: Acrobatics
1st - Arcane Strike
2nd - Combat Casting
3rd - Weapon Focus: Whip
5th - Whip Mastery
6th - Disruptive
7th - Improved Whip Mastery
8th - Skill Focus: Intimidate
8th - Dazzling Display*
9th - Agile Manuevers*
9th - Combat Expertise*
9th - Improved Trip
11th - Greater Trip
12th - Spellbreaker
13th - Improved Reposition
15th - Greater Reposition
16th - Penetrating Strike
16th - Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
17th - Serpent Lash
19th - Greater Serpent Lash
20th - Greater Penetrating Strike

bold indicates feats in slots that are 'locked in' and not available to be changed out.
* indicates Fighter bonus feats

As I said, he'll be using a shield and likely carrying a wand or three if I know him... his primary role in combat will be buffs and debuffs to start, then going after enemy spellcasters or protecting friendly ones. Out of combat it'll be face skills and healing. I would have loved to have gotten him some protective feats like Saving Shield, Bodyguard or even Lunge or Combat Reflexes to make the most out of his whip-weilding, but with the feat taxes there just weren't enough slots. I'm currently desparate to get Discordant Voice in there at 11, but what do I move around?


I would suggest starting with the two fighter levels - you get slightly more HP at low levels (assuming max hp for first level) and the two fighter bonus feats can get you Weapon Focus (Whip) and then Whip Mastery) at level 2, then third level you take Bard - get Arcane Strike and still have a 3rd level feat to take (Combat Casting if you want - but remember that with a whip you likely will be outside of 5' - I'd consider taking something else earlier - Dazzling Display comes to mind. Or Improved Trip since tripping is more effective at lower levels generally speaking.

[wrote this then realized that the point of level 1 bard is to gain Whip proficiency - I'd suggest then taking 2 levels of fighter following that - so adjust these suggestions accordingly]

Also note that you get Combat Expertise for free from Lore Warden. Personally I would suggest taking a 3rd level of Lore Warden since you get that very nice bonus to CMB/CMD.

This does mean that for level 1 & 2 you can't use a shield (since Lore Warden's don't get shield proficiency) but that's probably not a big deal assuming you are a high DEX build.

It is also worth noting that since you can use Weapon Finesse with combat maneuvers that use a weapon Agile Maneuvers isn't really all that crucial for this type of build - assuming you are using your whip most of the time to do maneuvers. I would suggest looking at other useful feats in place of Agile Maneuvers (improved reposition earlier that you currently have it comes immediately to mind).

I'd also suggest keeping in mind that at higher levels you will need to fly and that tripping becomes far less viable against many opponents (due to creature size, # of limbs, creature type or that they are flying/swimming). My lore warden for PFS has Dirty Tricks as his other maneuver focus (he wields a rapier not a whip) - which while not always possible with a weapon (depends on the creature and DM interpretation) offers incredible flexibility and lots of interesting options.

This build (fighter for 2 levels then bard, adding a 3rd level of lore warden at some point in the future) would let you be a whip master from nearly the beginning and be exceptionally effective with it from early on. With Magical Knack it also means that even though you will only be a 1st level bard at 3rd level you will cast as a 3rd level caster.

I'd also note that other Combat Casting this build doesn't have any feats that improve your bardic or casting abilities. I'd probably suggest swapping a bardic only feat like perhaps Lingering Performance (or another feat that modifies your performances) for Combat Casting (since as I note you likely are building to be attacking at reach - or using acrobatics to get out of reach before you cast)


Okay, th eonly way to get Discordant Voice in there as early as possible (very necessary considering that there will be both an eidolon with multiple attacks and a fair number of summoned creatures every combat) is to take the Lore Warden levels first - not my first choice - and even worse, to drop Dazzling Display.

I'm looking at working it back in somewhere - already having the weapon focus and the opportunity for a very high Intimidate modifier makes it seem almost a no-brainer... ironically I could drop the Focused Study option and actually get it at 1st level, but then I'd lose the skill focus boosts, including to Intimidate.

Looks like what I'm going to have to do though. The upside is he'll have a nice debuff he can use right from the get-go.

1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Weapon Focus: Whip
1st - Dazzling Display
2nd - Whip Mastery
2nd - Combat Expertise
3rd - Arcane Strike
3rd - Improved Trip
4th - Combat Casting
5th - Agile Manuevers
7th - Improved Whip Mastery
8th - Disruptive
9th - Greater Trip
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Spellbreaker
13th - Improved Reposition
15th - Greater Reposition
16th - Penetrating Strike
17th - Serpent Lash
19th - Greater Serpent Lash
20th - Greater Penetrating Strike


the issue as I just edited is that Fighters don't get weapon proficiency with the whip since it is an exotic weapon...

you could take your first level as bard (getting whip proficiency for free, get arcane strike) and go from there.


Rycaut - looks like we were thinking along the same lines...

That's an excellent and over-looked point on Weapon Finesse regarding using Dex when Tripping or Disarming... I really wanted to be able to utilize Repositioning, but it looks like your suggestion will be a more efficient way to go about it. Its not as if Agile Manuevers would allow my Dex bonus to stack with itself...

Combat Casting, btw, is a bonus feat from being an Arcane Duelist, not a choice I've made.


Rycaut wrote:

the issue as I just edited is that Fighters don't get weapon proficiency with the whip since it is an exotic weapon...

you could take your first level as bard (getting whip proficiency for free, get arcane strike) and go from there.

Grrrrrrr... Back to the drawing board. How much do I hate that +1 BAB pre-req?

Not that big a deal, really... as you said, take a level of Bard first and then shuffle things around early:

1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Skill Focus: Acrobatics
1st - Arcane Strike
2nd - Weapon Focus: Whip
3rd - Combat Expertise*
3rd - Whip Mastery
3rd - Dazzling Display
4th - Combat Casting
5th - Improved Trip
7th - Improved Whip Mastery
8th - Disruptive
8th - Skill Focus: Intimidate
9th - Greater Trip
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Spellbreaker
13th - Serpent Lash
15th - Greater Serpent Lash
16th - Penetrating Strike
16th - Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
17th - Combat Reflexes
19th - Lunge
20th - Greater Penetrating Strike


Ah right forgot that Arcane Duelist gives Combat Casting for free. I like the way the build is shaping up - though I also wonder whether a 1st level feat might be better than the three skill focus feats for focused study (I've seen that used for builds with Eldritch Heritage as a plan but this build it seems somewhat moot - since both Bards and Lore Wardens get a lot of skill points already - boost to Intimidate I guess is likely useful and perhaps to acrobatics but at higher levels not sure the boost to UMD will matter all that much.


Rycaut wrote:
Ah right forgot that Arcane Duelist gives Combat Casting for free. I like the way the build is shaping up - though I also wonder whether a 1st level feat might be better than the three skill focus feats for focused study (I've seen that used for builds with Eldritch Heritage as a plan but this build it seems somewhat moot - since both Bards and Lore Wardens get a lot of skill points already - boost to Intimidate I guess is likely useful and perhaps to acrobatics but at higher levels not sure the boost to UMD will matter all that much.

I generally take Focused Study any time I'm committed to taking even 1 skill focus feat - i.e. for Eldritch Heritage, a build that makes use of Intimidate or something like Snake Style. I feel like Intimidate will be a very useful early part of this build as will Acrobatics, but yeah... not really sure what to do with that last one, especially considering the character is really intended to get to 17th or 18th level tops.


The problem with this is that trip just doesn't work. There's a size limit and anything with more than two legs gets huge bonuses against it and it doesn't work at all on things without legs of flying things. It's pretty much the worst combat maneuver to specialize in if you're going to get into the double digit levels or even the high single digits.

Whip can work as a damage weapon, but you need a strength build with all the damage boosters using it two handed (it's a one handed weapon without the rapier's no two handing clause).

Ditch trip and you can drop the fighter dip, which improves your inspire courage and your spellcasting. You can still trip safely because of your reach and while it'll go obsolete a little earlier you won't be suffering with wasted feats when it does.


The fighter dip gives you whip mastery at level 3, plus the free combat expertise, plus a slight boost to BAB - for a duelist character I think that is well worth it (personally at least)

I agree that Trip isn't the best feat at higher levels - so I would suggest focusing on other feats as well - disarm is surprisingly useful fairly frequently (besides weapons you can also sometimes disarm a cleric's holy symbol) but it too isn't useful against a lot of creatures. Reposition especially if you have a summoned horde of creatures to take attacks of opportunity can be interesting - and the Intimidate via weapon performance route is also interesting.

The Exchange

To get the most out of that Improved Whip Mastery / Disruptive / Spellbreaker I'd definitly try to get the guy the Combat Reflexes Feat along the way somewhere. I'd also think about taking the Enforcer Feat (a whip does non-lethal as standard, so may as well use that to the guy's advantage when he can).

The only reason you seem to need Weapon Finesse here is to qualify for the Serpent's Lash Feat. It's a nice Feat for a whip-based character, but is it really worth having to make the guy a finesse-fighter type? Go Strength-based and you'll be doing more damage, and have three more Feats to play around with (dropping Weapon Finesse, Serpent's Lash, and Greater Serpent's Lash). Maybe Enforcer, Intimidating Prowess, and Combat Reflexes (he wouldn't completely dump his Dexterity, obviously...)?

Or go finesse-fighter, but take Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Slam and (if you can squeeze it in somewhere...) Shield Master. Tricky to fit it all in with the whip focus as well, but could be worth a look.

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