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I wish to make a cleric of Nethys with the Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) feat tree and pick up a bonded object, which will probably be his holy symbol or quarterstaff. How does the spell storage apply if used by a cleric, or was this ability ment only for arcane spell casters?
You mean the extra spontaneous spell per day for the Arcane Bond? That probably has to be an arcane spell.
Your GM may rule otherwise - it's thematic, but unlikely to pass common rules as interpreted or written.
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You mean the extra spontaneous spell per day for the Arcane Bond? That probably has to be an arcane spell.
Your GM may rule otherwise - it's thematic, but unlikely to pass common rules as interpreted or written.
I don't see why it shouldn't apply to a spell from the cleric's list if the cleric has the Eldritch Heritage feat to match. Also, what about the new arcana ability? Would that apply to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list? Would a spell from that list be added to the cleric spell list? I've seen people asking questions about this specific "Eldritch Heritage", but all I've ever seen are opinions or house rules. It'd be nice to see some sort of official ruling on it.
The specific wording of arcane bond allows you to cast any spell you have recorded in your spellbook.
Better start writing!
The specific wording of arcane bond allows you to cast any spell you have recorded in your spellbook.
Better start writing!
Ya got me there...still, I'm sure Nethys would grant such an ability to one of his devout followers, although given his fickleness, this is mere stipulation. Digressing, the wording DOES say spellbook and I'm sure would be an awesome ability for a Magus to have, especially if he is using the Bladebound Archetype, but other than that...I must say "poo".
But wait, what if a sorcerer with the arcane bloodline chooses a bonded object? By default he is forced to pick a familiar. If that is the case, then why offer the option?
EDIT: Thematically speaking, who is to say a cleric can't have a spellbook? Just because he owns one containing writings that may or may not be on the cleric spell list doesn't mean he has to actually utilize it. Here I am splitting hairs...
The sorcerer can still use it to pretend to have a crafting feat for that one item.
The sorcerer can still use it to pretend to have a crafting feat for that one item.
That was changed. Go look at the errata. Sorcs can use it for their spells too.
If the Feat grants the ability then I would rule you're ok using it as a Cleric.
The Feats were never designed for any particular race or class so go for it!
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Second to Fifth Printing of the CRB they really should update the PRD...
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The only remaining problem is that only spontaneous casters really have 'spells known'.
So Oracles and Bards would have no problem using Arcane Bloodline Item Bond, but Clerics would have a problem.
Wizards' (and thus Magus') Spellbook spells are referenced as being spells known, so the BL works for them also*, but not Clerics.
* Arcane Bond specifically says you can't have two Arcane Bonds or a Familiar and Bonded Item, but for Wizards who don't have an Arcane Bond because they took an Archetype, they can regain an Arcane Bond this way. Otherwise, it's useful to scale the existing, single Familiar for Wizards/Witches who multi-class out.
If you want to be nice, you either decide that it applies to ALL spells on their spell-list (which is way better than any other class), or I would consider Clerics' Spontaneous Casting to be like Spontaneous Casters' spells known, and thus the Item Bond allows an additonal casting of any spell they can Spontaneously Cast (usually Cure/Inflict spells, can be Spontaneous Domain Casting, at least with some Druid Archetypes). You could also let them Spontaneously Cast any spell they memorized, but that just seems wierd in relation to how the ability functions for other classes, and also begs the question if it applies to spells they already cast or only ones that remain memorized. I would go with the Spontaneous Casting interpretation, since it seems by far closest to Spontaneous Casters' spells known.
But per the RAW, I don't think it allows the bonus casting for Clerics/Druids... Which isn't the worst thing in the world, as that ability also does nothing for other Classes who take it, e.g. Martial classes with no Casting. Cleric casting is different from other casting, so that it doesn't work the same here is hardly surprising. I did hit FAQ though, and invite others to also do so... Especially the Spontaneous Casting part seems PRETTY DAMN REASONABLE, so although that's not RAW, perhaps Paizo will allow that in a FAQ or Errata, and thus enable that option in PFS play...?
Not sure what the official answer is, but I'd let it represent any cure/inflict spell (the ones you sacrifice a spell slot for) at up to the highest level spell you can cast.
That's kind of meh, but it's better than "doesn't work" or "gives you any cleric spell possible". The "any spell prepared" option is more balanced, but it's also more of a stretch from the RAW.
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@meabolex yeah, i agree with the 'more of a stretch from RAW', meabo.
really, i think the extra spontaneous casting thing is really a decent deal, sure, cure/inflict isn't that sexy (although much better if you house-rule breath of life to be a cure spell, along with a negative energy equivalent: slay living?*), but if you really care about 'sexy' for spontaneous casting spells you should REALLY be using spontaneous domain casting somehow, and if you are this approach should work with that just as easily.
@booksy i may be overlooking something, but AFAIK, clerics simply don't have any 'spells known'.
as i wrote, wizards' spellbook is mentioned to count as this in some sense, but nothing for cleric spells says that. they just have full access to their spell list when preparing, but they aren't called spells known in ANY grammatic conjugation. spells known are a specific rules function, so i don't feel comfortable saying that their entire spell list is 'spells known'.
from a close to RAW basis, it is problematic to say that eldrich heritage arcane bonded item would let clerics do any of this, vs. a cleric dipping 1 level in sorceror - there shouldn't be a difference there in whether cleric spells work or not, and there isn't per RAW because clerics don't have spells known in any sense. i do think SOME functionality is reasonable, but it doesn't have to be 'super CoD' awesome. even with a very minor benefit (which could just be a free item crafting feat for the bonded item), it's not unreasonable for a cleric to take eldritch heritage: arcane BL, since the higher BL abilities can be very useful to them: free metamagic and stacking school focus.
* slay living is the only close equivalent of that spell level in the core book, although it's definitely not a close equivalent. i'd rather see a spell that had identical damage/healing amount as BoL but had a similar effect for undead? (re-creating them after they are destroyed? temporarily creating undead from the dead?) ...or maybe just the same amount of damage/undead-healing and a negative level on the living and a clause that if they drop into negatives they instantly die if they fail the save?
i really wish the other 'mass cure/inflict' were not used for spontaneous casting, but rather BoL/etc, Heal/Harm, and maybe the higher level spells can stay as-is. The lower level "Mass" spells are just a joke compared to Channel.
note: breath of life doesn't have the wording about working differently for undead. whoops.
also, cure/inflict spells should really be evocation and not conjuration.
i mean, spell focus: conj is 'lovely' for qualifying for summoning feats, but really.
Eldritch Heritage (arcane) should apply only to arcane spells. And the benefits of a bonded object should apply only to spells from the actual class that gave you a bonded object. And if you use an arcane bond with a sorcerer, that merely lets you cast an additional spell you know; it's a much more versatile power when used by a wizard.James,
I wish to make a cleric of Nethys with the Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) feat tree and pick up a bonded object, which will probably be his holy symbol or quarterstaff. How does the spell storage apply if used by a cleric (or any spell caster that picks this particular Eldritch Heritage), or was this ability ment only for arcane spell casters? Also, what about the new arcana ability? Would that apply to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list? Would a spell from that list be added to the cleric's (or spell caster's) spell list?
In addition, the wording of the bonded object spell storage indicates any spell from your spellbook...does this apply only to wizards and magi (in the assumption that a sorcerer take the Arcane bloodline, they will be unable to use the spell storage ability due to lack of a spellbook)?
I just thought I'd post James' answer here. Due to all the flaming he's had to deal with over the monk stuff, I'm surprised he even responded. Ya know what they say "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". Digressing, James' say is official enough for me. Question answered, even if it wasn't the answer I sought.
the problem with james' reading is that paizo has already made very clear that other BL abilities apply to ALL spellcasting, whether from a sorceror dip or eldritch heritage. restricting it in this case just doesn't make sense. so i can't go along with his reading that it doesn't apply to divine spells, e.g. an oracle's spells. james doesn't really seem to address it, but since it doesn't seem clerics have spells known, it shouldn't do anything for them, though. (RAW)
In the end, I'd house rule it, especially if you worship the god of MAGIC. It does make a lot of sense thematically that the god of magic would bless one of his more devout followers with a touch of the arcane, either as EH (arcane) or simply taking a level in sorc BL (arcane). IT makes sense.
I'd personally let it work for any spontaneous cure/inflict, and any Domain spell. Those are specific spells known only to that particular cleric, better than just the spontaneous, and adds the option of doubling up on good domain spells that you normally only get once if they're from another list.
but that's just my 2cp.
You can house rule it anyway you want, that's a given.
My interpretation of RAW is that it would not work:
- You do not gain it as a part of a spellcasting class
- It is locked to your character level progression, not a class level progression
- Thus it only lets you cast spells that you gain from your race (e.g. if you are a certain outsider)
- You can still add magic properties to it if your spellcraft is high enough (and all other conditions are fulfilled). Caster level would be your character level -2, not your cleric level then.
It is much more useful wrt. the familiar, going into improved familiar later if so desired.
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Please, do choose the bonded object. I think your GM will dance in glee when a NPC sunders your bonded holy symbol and suddenly casting ANY AND ALL of your spells (whether arcane or divine) needs a Concentration check. And you don't even need an FAQ for this drawback, as it is pure RAW (page 78 of the CRB).
Please, do choose the bonded object. I think your GM will dance in glee when a NPC sunders your bonded holy symbol and suddenly casting ANY AND ALL of your spells (whether arcane or divine) needs a Concentration check. And you don't even need an FAQ for this drawback, as it is pure RAW (page 78 of the CRB).
It's not quite that bad:
- If the holy symbol is sundered, you always have a problem as a divine casting class. That's what backups are for :-)- Arcane spellcasting only requires a spellcraft check, not a concentration check. It's easy to boost that one: Max your ranks, maybe take skill focus spellcraft once, and you're good for live from level 5 or so onward (assuming take 10, later it gets easier).
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Please, do choose the bonded object. I think your GM will dance in glee when a NPC sunders your bonded holy symbol and suddenly casting ANY AND ALL of your spells (whether arcane or divine) needs a Concentration check. And you don't even need an FAQ for this drawback, as it is pure RAW (page 78 of the CRB).It's not quite that bad:
- If the holy symbol is sundered, you always have a problem as a divine casting class. That's what backups are for :-)
Quite right for a backup holy symbol. However, there is no such thing as a backup bonded item : "If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete."
- Arcane spellcasting only requires a spellcraft check, not a concentration check. It's easy to boost that one: Max your ranks, maybe take skill focus spellcraft once, and you're good for live from level 5 or so onward (assuming take 10, later it gets easier).
"If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell." Note that here it does not specify "from his spellbook" and thus affects any spell he attempts to cast
Please, do choose the bonded object. I think your GM will dance in glee when a NPC sunders your bonded holy symbol and suddenly casting ANY AND ALL of your spells (whether arcane or divine) needs a Concentration check. And you don't even need an FAQ for this drawback, as it is pure RAW (page 78 of the CRB).It's not quite that bad:
- If the holy symbol is sundered, you always have a problem as a divine casting class. That's what backups are for :-)Quite right for a backup holy symbol. However, there is no such thing as a backup bonded item : "If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete."
"If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell." Note that here it does not specify "from his spellbook" and thus affects any spell he attempts to cast- Arcane spellcasting only requires a spellcraft check, not a concentration check. It's easy to boost that one: Max your ranks, maybe take skill focus spellcraft once, and you're good for live from level 5 or so onward (assuming take 10, later it gets easier).
If you as PC are willing risk to go with out bonded abilty for week of game time then I as GM would let it fly take any spell out there and cast it once per day up to your level sure. Fair trade.
Please, do choose the bonded object. I think your GM will dance in glee when a NPC sunders your bonded holy symbol and suddenly casting ANY AND ALL of your spells (whether arcane or divine) needs a Concentration check. And you don't even need an FAQ for this drawback, as it is pure RAW (page 78 of the CRB).It's not quite that bad:
- If the holy symbol is sundered, you always have a problem as a divine casting class. That's what backups are for :-)Quite right for a backup holy symbol. However, there is no such thing as a backup bonded item : "If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete."
"If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell." Note that here it does not specify "from his spellbook" and thus affects any spell he attempts to cast- Arcane spellcasting only requires a spellcraft check, not a concentration check. It's easy to boost that one: Max your ranks, maybe take skill focus spellcraft once, and you're good for live from level 5 or so onward (assuming take 10, later it gets easier).
You are right about the concentration check. Strange, I looked it up twice - must have misread it twice as well :-P
Yeah, that creates a dependency. Although I wonder: Can you choose to NOT take a bonded item? After all, you can choose not to summon a familiar, then this should be possible as well - or at least you should be able to postpone it to a level when you make that check practically always.
Regarding the holy symbol, bonded item would not matter for it since the bond is either tied to your character level (eldritch heritage) or your arcane spellcasting class. Your divine casting class' abilities should be completely unaffected by it - you just pull out a replacement symbol.
Anyway, I consider arcane bond (item) pretty much useless for eldritch heritage, the only real benefit is a familiar - any YMMV on that.
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Regarding the holy symbol, bonded item would not matter for it since the bond is either tied to your character level (eldritch heritage) or your arcane spellcasting class. Your divine casting class' abilities should be completely unaffected by it - you just pull out a replacement symbol
Well, you do pull a replacement holy symbol AND have to make a Concentration check because it is not your bonded item.
There is nothing in the drawback's description stating that this penalty applies only to spells from the wizard's spellbook. Of course, you can always houserule it, but RAW it applies to any spell (divine or arcane) the character attempts to cast.
Regarding the holy symbol, bonded item would not matter for it since the bond is either tied to your character level (eldritch heritage) or your arcane spellcasting class. Your divine casting class' abilities should be completely unaffected by it - you just pull out a replacement symbolWell, you do pull a replacement holy symbol AND have to make a Concentration check because it is not your bonded item.
There is nothing in the drawback's description stating that this penalty applies only to spells from the wizard's spellbook. Of course, you can always houserule it, but RAW it applies to any spell (divine or arcane) the character attempts to cast.
Again, I do not believe that the arcane bond gained through eldritch heritage gives you any spellcasting benefits, neither does it give you penalties on your spellcasting - unless that spellcasting is gained through character levels, e.g. in the case of some outsiders or dragons.
The only benefit you gain is that you can enchant this item cheaply, which may not be worth it on its own, but is a good bonus in the chain of eldritch heritage feats.Now for some final hints regarding the arcane bond:
1. It's called "arcane", not "magic", bond
2. The arcane bond explicitely refers to a wizard's spellbook spells. The sorcerer version has explicit text altering that:
"Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item."
3. It would only apply to spells "known". Clerics have no spells "known".
4. The text regarding the concentration states "if a wizard..." - as usual these features are tied to a class. Also, otherwise that would mean that any multiclassing spellcaster would suddenly require this arcane bond for all his spells. It does not work that way, I am convinced of that.
That is why EH (arcane) is much for useful for gaining a familiar instead of a bonded item.
So there would not be a concentration check because your cleric would be unaffected by it. In fact, your arcane class - if any - would also be unaffected by it, though there at least would be some room for argument.
If you are in doubt or don't follow my reasoning, you can FAQ it, if you think your reasoning is right, then go with your way of judging it.
I am pretty sure of it here, for me there is no need for further clarification. :-)
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We have to agree to disagree then, Sangalor. Thanks for using a calm and respectful tone in your posts. It is a welcome change in the boards.
Fine with me :-)
And no thanks required - being respectful should be the standard, not something requiring praise :-)