Goblin Squad Member
|
I am wanting to learn a bit more about PFO before I fork over a few hundred or 1k for a kick start funding program, I have tried to skim as much info from the blogs as I could, and have not followed the forums at all. So please keep the flames as low as possible if these issues have been addressed… I may add additional questions to this in a bit, but figured id get the elephant in the room taken care of first..
1. PvP is encouraged… This may well be the one thing that keeps me away. I don’t want to waste time in a world where after a long fight some guy can run up kill me / or loot the thing I killed and run away. From what I understood if you win and die anyone can loot your corpse and take a few random things out of your inventory and anyone can walk up and loot the thing you just killed. So corpse camping and ninja looting and training is encourage??????, but not to fear a bounty system will keep the trolls away? Or the threat of having a bad rep will do the job? How exactly is that going to help make the last few hours I spent on an encounter any better?
a. If I understand the play mechanics, I watch a group of players face off against something in a “hex” . choice a = they bit off more than they can chew, and die. My response is take my 2 box or 3 box team into the hex, have the guy with nothing n him to agro the guards and kite them around and die, while I loot the other group and escape ….. Or Choice B, I wait until the encounter is almost done and they haven’t had time to rest have my lowest worthless group member agro the guards and then kite. Then take out the resource depleted fools and loot them and the bad guy they mostly killed or completely killed …
b. Be I don’t actively kill the group I just don’t want them to win so I take my worthless kiter character and train more guards and whatever else I can find at them at the most convenient time. All players die I log in the other guy I have camped near by to loot and scoot…
If these behaviors are actively being designed and encouraged, the title of the post remains the same, is this game really for me…..
Have I missed something here, I was semi excited about PFO, but after reading how some of this is going to be working, where is the fun in the above encounter?
What am I missing that is going to make this type of PvP preventable or enjoyable?
I'd recommend catching up at least on the PvP Conflict forum thread. Like you, PvP is a concern of mine; so far, the developers appear to be taking great pains to make it enjoyable for all. (And I'd like to have another newbie in there posting with me!)
There are a couple of threads around on the first forum page with useful links. It's a LOT of information to get through but may answer some questions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
PVP is encouraged, griefing is NOT.
I beleive if you die you have a set time you can be res'd (you are traveling in dangerous territory with friends right?) If the time runs out you respawn at a bind point you set earlier and have to run back to your "husk" with weapons and armor. While running back someone can loot your husk and get a random item or two. I thinks its still undecided exactly what happens to your remaining items.
item A - a hex is a "zone" in other games, so there could be many many other people around as well, including people allied with the ones you see fighting. I suspect kiting won't work, its a bad mechanic. You will however be free to jump in with your group and attack the other players. Mind you if you are close to town the guards WILL wtfpwn you, weather they do so before or after you kill the other players depends on how close to a town you are. Regardless you will take a faction hit, which can reduce your access to better gear, skills and supplies and an allignment shift to evil which can also reduces your access to skills, equipment and supplies.
item B - I am not sure if you can loot an NPC killed corpse, good question to ask though.
I think what you are missing is that unlike most games there will be real consequences and penalties for killing.
I look at it this way. I play PVE in WoW. I can not tell you how many times I have watched another player kill a boss spawn while I'm clearing the last trash mob, nab the resource node while I'm celaring the trash on top of it, etc and thought to myself "I would really love to kick tha sob's arse"...
Well, in PFO YOU CAN, (or die trying...) as long as you are willing to deal with the consequences of your actions.
I don't see this as a bad thing because I beleive the devs are going to design something that allows this without it becomming gratuitous or griefable.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I'm going to drill a lot deeper: is "going around solo or in small groups or in groups of a fixed size (e.g. 50, no more and no less) and fighting AI controlled mobs that follow essentially the same script every time, in order to incrementally improve your equipment so you can handle the next encounter" the kind of gameplay that you think is ideal for a MMO, or do you want something different?
I ask this because your examples were all about what would probably happen if the type of open PvP in PFO was to be put into a game which was designed to be something else. If you try to judge PFO as "like some other game, but with the following differences" you will not be able to understand it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm going to drill a lot deeper: is "going around solo or in small groups or in groups of a fixed size (e.g. 50, no more and no less) and fighting AI controlled mobs that follow essentially the same script every time, in order to incrementally improve your equipment so you can handle the next encounter" the kind of gameplay that you think is ideal for a MMO, or do you want something different?
Sounds pretty boring to me, PFO is going to be much more interesting from what I've read so far. :-)
Daniel.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm going to drill a lot deeper: is "going around solo or in small groups or in groups of a fixed size (e.g. 50, no more and no less) and fighting AI controlled mobs that follow essentially the same script every time, in order to incrementally improve your equipment so you can handle the next encounter" the kind of gameplay that you think is ideal for a MMO, or do you want something different?
I ask this because your examples were all about what would probably happen if the type of open PvP in PFO was to be put into a game which was designed to be something else. If you try to judge PFO as "like some other game, but with the following differences" you will not be able to understand it.
It depends how good, adaptable and variable the scripts are. I really enjoyed the monsters in darkfall. If a goblin notices you in the distance, you might start seeing arrows flying around you and quickly take cover to decide what to do next. If you start mining some ore and a goblin squad heard you, they come investigate.
But that's darkfall, their mechanics are very different. Pvp isn't REALLY that much different. Instead of having scripts, you just have game mechanics to limit the options of the players. They will do this or that because that's what they have available, granted it IS more variable and intelligent, they'll adapt and change tactics where they need to, but from what I understand of combat in PFO, you'll have to pre prepare your abilities anyway, so you'll only have limited options at any one time any, so your fight will STILL consist of a repeated series of attacks, but hopefully in a more dynamic and exciting way than the traditional "ability 1, then 2, then three then 4, by then cool down 1 is done, rinse and repeat until target is dead, throwing in heals/debuffs/cures where appropriate" which is like fighting a scripted monster, but with more erratic movement patterns.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ DeciusBrutus
I will always remember the raids I did in EQ, what, 20 years ago, and the raids in WoW and dungeons in Rift.
That was maximized meaningful human interaction. A group of people in vent/teamspeak working towards a common goal, wiping together, learning together, winning together.
Even 15-20 years later I remember camping Cim's res stick, doing those gawd aweful plane runs, tashims patience explaining yet again the proper way to pull the boss...
I remember Whirlwinds stupid criminal stories, dragging people on follow into the lava, pulling rags cause I was too busy telling the rogue what a moron he was for not stealthing to get into position for rags and pulling him on the previous attempt as I ran up next to him, unstealthed.
I remember getting together with a bunch of other guilds and crashing our server 4 times in 5 minutes until the GM's told us if we continued to try and raid stormwind we'd all be banned for crashing the server.
The night we got a milestone boss down to 2% only to wipe, and then everyone volunteering to stay up another 2 hours and screw work tomorrow, to down the boss to get a server first.
I remember ele, who could come up with the most brilliant strats, and then bore everyone to sleep explaining them.
our psycho guild leader, I've always suspected half our wipes were deliberate, just to hear him emo-rant...
I will be 98, full on alheimers, unable to remember my name or how to piss without a diaper, but I will STILL remember getting my shammy plate drop in Molton core, after a year of trying, especially after forcing brawl to spend all of his dkp when the first one dropped the week before and getting mine for the minimum bid.
Camping that ridiculous dungeon 80 times in Rift for Straya's shield...which we never got :-p
ALL of it non-pvp.
Do you know what I remember about the maximized meaningful human interaction from the game ya'll are basing this on, eve online?
Not a damn thing except some greifer ass-hat who can't get his rocks off without ruining someone elses day randomly deciding to ruin mine.
So YES, I do think thats IDEAL for a MMO.
I ALSO think thre is room for pvp and I really wish more people would be willing to give it a chance instead of writing the game off the instant they here pvp.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I want to thank those that have responded, I am trying to do some more research and reading what I am able to about PFO.
I took Charissa’s advise and read through the PVP post, I guess its not a complete game killer for me, but I have some huge reservations about it…..
The Head goblin hear is from Eve .(This is a except from a recent blog…I can offer links for posterity if needed, but would rather not advertise other sites without knowing the protocol for such things on here..)
“The problem is that EVE is a very self-selecting community, and frankly some of its devs and a good number of its high-profile players are the sort who only have fun at someone else's expense.
Consequently, too few folks in the larger MMO community want to play EVE. It's a game made by wolves, for wolves, and therefore it's quite limited in scope compared to a more well-rounded sandbox. Yes, EVE offers more potential than any other current MMO, but because of the personalities involved, that potential almost always translates into new and amazing ways to be an ass. “
How are folks that just play to be an ass going to be handled? I see the player introduction #’s are set for a time period, is there plans and talks to have dedicated GM’s on line to instantly handle disputes at all hours( if so how long are the contracts initially going to run..)? Is that in the budget? Or are we going to be asked to send a petition and wait a week while some one has chance to review the logs a week later and perhaps send a warning email. ….
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As for Summersnow I know you understand exactly the game play I am interested in, as I might have been in a parallel world, the names of the people I played with were different but the feelings were the same.
EQ is the only MMO I have played for more than a week ( in fact am going on 12 years now..)
As for my question ( is PFO going to be for me…), I guess I need to know what PFO definition of Sandbox is going to be,
EQ the early years between 1999- till about 2003 in my opinion is what a sandbox should bet. No easy mode about the game, no easy travel, dying meant finding your body wearing nothing but what you could pick up in the bank. The game didn’t tell you what to do next nor did it care what you were doing . No highlighted path to follow, no reminder to talk to the NPC standing next to you, no way of finding that NPC you are looking for except by wandering around. I loved that aspect of the game. Things changed when wow came out and folks thought players wanted easy mode….
To DeciusBrutus
Early EQ was never about grinding the gear it was about accomplishment, it would take 50 -80 people to get 3 items of loot, so you probably were not going to get anything but a few hours with friends out of any event. Early EQ was fighting things that could not die with an army that would not give up, It was not about doing an instant raid every 5 days and grinding gear. Instant raids and content had a niche but overall I feel they took a lot of the social interaction out of the game. Early EQ was what I See as a Sandbox, it is a feeling many have tried to recreate over the years and no one has really been able to do it…… too many people ask for easy mode, ( at the same time just adding PvP doesn’t = hard mode…)
Off to the PnP game for the day .. the name on the box of this game is a the reason I am here..
I do not want to seem combative, obviously some folks here have been keeping up with this for a year or so… I recently got an email that asked me for money for a kickstart and before I do I just am trying to get a good feel for what this project is about….
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I didn't mean to insult the PvE gameplay of EQ/WoW, just describe it clinically.
What parts of the community aspect did you like, and did those aspects rely on the fact that your common opponent was a programmed AI and not humans? Why do you suspect that there will not be equal levels of group communication?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I want to thank those that have responded, I am trying to do some more research and reading what I am able to about PFO.
I took Charissa’s advise and read through the PVP post, I guess its not a complete game killer for me, but I have some huge reservations about it…..
The Head goblin hear is from Eve .(This is a except from a recent blog…I can offer links for posterity if needed, but would rather not advertise other sites without knowing the protocol for such things on here..)
“The problem is that EVE is a very self-selecting community, and frankly some of its devs and a good number of its high-profile players are the sort who only have fun at someone else's expense.
Consequently, too few folks in the larger MMO community want to play EVE. It's a game made by wolves, for wolves, and therefore it's quite limited in scope compared to a more well-rounded sandbox. Yes, EVE offers more potential than any other current MMO, but because of the personalities involved, that potential almost always translates into new and amazing ways to be an ass. “How are folks that just play to be an ass going to be handled? I see the player introduction #’s are set for a time period, is there plans and talks to have dedicated GM’s on line to instantly handle disputes at all hours( if so how long are the contracts initially going to run..)? Is that in the budget? Or are we going to be asked to send a petition and wait a week while some one has chance to review the logs a week later and perhaps send a warning email. ….
Ryan has covered this, I don't remember where, but I read it today haha. He says that part of the idea behind EVE was a sort of exploration of people's greed and corporatocracy, that isn't part of the vision of Pathfinder Online. The bigger you get, the harder it is to manage, the more you stick to the straight and narrow, the easier it will be to manage, so giant douchebaggery will be rather difficult to maintain and manage, and smaller groups that treat people better in the end will do better than a large one that doesn't.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Jameow
I began seeing some of the post as well , thanks folks bumping some old threads,…. btw ask for some of those to be stickied as many have a lot of good info, and answering the same questions over and over for you guys has to be a bit annoying..
For DeciusBrutus,
Your clinical description of EQ is way off of what caused folks to fall in love with a game that has been running since march of 99… It is what it is now but not what it started out as, ( which is why I am looking for other games to support ). Find some folks that were around for the first sleeper kills on their servers and ask them about that night. Ask them about corpse runs and the Plane of Fear , scouring the entire world trying to find the next person to talk to complete an epic . The accomplishments and the people you depended on to get those things done were the best parts of the game.
From what I understand , PFO is going provide that sense of accomplishment by developing Or destroying settlements that other Groups create. There may be some hard mode type mobs that spawn or super rare instant areas created, but a very large part of the game appears to be the interaction between the players. ( no universal type mob that requires all groups to work together to defeat..)
This could be a good thing, will have to wait and see….
To address if it is Humans or AI , with AI you know when you posses the skills to beat a scenario and can participate in the game when you log on.
As for Humans as the main opponent, will have to see the mechanics, I just hope is not going to be the nightly demolition of my settlements at times I am not able to play..
As for equal levels of communication, If I understand the question. You want to know if I feel the game will be about cooperation or competition.
I hope the game is about cooperation but I feel it could easily digress into competition.
How would you see the below scenario playing out ?
Group A and Group B have a stressed relationship… different alignments, or just plain don’t like each other much.
Super hard server first situation arises, major bad guy spotted in zone X, Group A gets there first is organized and is engaged in a major fight. Group B gets the same notice about the major bad guy but took a bit longer to get moving and organized and shows after Group A engaged.
What does Group B do? What is acceptable behavior of Group B? When would Group A and Group B work together if at all?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think there's more to it than a case of AI just being a scenario, they can be things you can't, do things human players cant do, they can have abilities that would be totally overpowering in player hands, you can't send thirty people working together against a single person, you CAN against a dragon or a titan or something, there's a different scale to it.
Sometimes it's been a GM, and it's been even more epic, so it's not just that it's not a player... it's a different experience.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... I just hope is not going to be the nightly demolition of my settlements at times I am not able to play...
It definitely won't be that.
From NPC law enforcement in PC settlement?:
The leader of a settlement can set a PvP window, during which time their NPC guards get drastically less numerous, thus providing a window for outsiders to attack without having to worry much about the NPC guards. If the settlement does not have a PvP window, it's development indexes can never go above 200 (so if you have a small just starting out settlement you can keep your PvP protection up full time to allow settlements to get some time to build up and get their feet under them before they start getting attacked). This means your settlement is safer from PvP, but is really going to be limited in what it can do.
As for your Group A / Group B question, here's how the devs directly addressed it.
From Where the Wild Things Are:
There's a third kind of dungeon, the largest and most challenging type. These are often designed to have several different entrances, each of which could be discovered by a different character, and shared by several parties. While exploring this kind of dungeon, you may very well encounter other characters! Fight, parlay, flee, or join forces—the results are up to you. Challenges in these dungeons may even require coordination between groups to complete—one party might have to fight through a room of undead to lower a magical barrier so that another party can access a different part of the dungeon.