Spring Attack, Reach Weapon, and Movement

[sasamix]

You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

So here is my question...

Say my character starts with 1 square between him and a foe, and is using a reach weapon. I need to move 10 feet before attacking. Can I move 5 feet away from the enemy, then 5 feet right back to my starting square (moving 10 feet in total), and then attack from my starting square?

I agree that this sounds a little cheesy, but I cannot find anything online or in the rules that state that the 10 feet of movement must be toward the target, such as is mentioned with a charge (that the movement must be in a straight line, and must be to the closest square from which an attack can be mounted).

Or how about if there is a pillar between A and the foe? Can A move around the pillar to get into position before attacking?

It's just that everything I can find that is actually written about Spring Attack just says "must move 10 feet before attack", and does not specify whether that 10 feet must be toward the target, or can be around a corner, or away from the target, or anything else. It just says "must move 10 feet". I don't think this is an oversight, as the charge rules were much more specific about allowable movement.

[Grick]

sasamix wrote:

Say my character starts with 1 square between him and a foe, and is using a reach weapon. I need to move 10 feet before attacking. Can I move 5 feet away from the enemy, then 5 feet right back to my starting square (moving 10 feet in total), and then attack from my starting square?

Why wouldn't you?

Also, why not just stand there and attack normally?

[sasamix]

Grick wrote:

Also, why not just stand there and attack normally?

Because if you spring attack, you don't provoke an AoO from your target. So you could move back and forth, attack, and use the rest of your movement to move past him.

[Grick]

sasamix wrote:

Grick wrote:

Also, why not just stand there and attack normally?

Because if you spring attack, you don't provoke an AoO from your target. So you could move back and forth, attack, and use the rest of your movement to move past him.

Ah, gotcha. I thought you were ending your movement in the same square you started in.

[Kjeldor]

Im going to say that what you want to do is fine. However if you want to hit him with a reach weapon and then move past him, why not move past him first and then hit him. You gain 10' worth of movement where as with your way you only move 20' or whatever your speed is minus 10... In fact your movement is very spring like, throw a ball connected to a rubber band away from you and it will come back to hit you in the face. Anyways I don't see a problem and would say good job for thinking outside the box.

[sasamix]

Thanks a lot guys!

[bbangerter]

As noted by others, the RAW of this is, yes you can do that. But then why even bother with the phrase "must move 10 feet before attack" in the feat description. The only time that would matter if is you were in terrain so rough and with such a low movement rate that you couldn't move that distance (a rather unique edge case to care about). Technically you could run a circle around an enemy, mocking him because he can't AoO you, then smack him in the face.

That leaves me to wonder if doing this is really RAI...

[Seraphimpunk]

Change up the question. Say the foe your striking is an Ogre with reach. you're 2 squares/ 10 ft from him. you're threatened, he's threatened by your reach weapon.

Now. before you complete moving 10' , are you considered spring attacking yet? or can the ogre attack you first for provoking an aoo? or since spring attack is a full round action, are you spring attacking from the moment you start, so you don't have to tumble or evade the target of your spring attack at all, and even the first 10' of movement doesn't provoke an attack even though you started out threatened?

[Grick]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

before you complete moving 10' , are you considered spring attacking yet?

Sure.

If you really want some cheese, check this out:

Spring Attack: "As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack."

It doesn't specify attacks of opportunity caused by movement. So you could use spring attack to make an untrained trip attack without provoking.

[Seraphimpunk]

damn. that could be clarified better. "without provoking any attacks of opportunity for movement from the target of your attack" for instance.

i wish i had a whiteboard i could draw on for a second for my followup.
so, you start your round non-adjacent to a large creature: o = square, x = creature, u = you, the bearer of the spring attack feat.

start: first step second step
oooooooo oooooooo oooooooo
oxxouooo oxxooooo oxxouooo
oxxooooo oxxouooo oxxooooo
oooooooo oooooooo oooooooo

by the second step, you've moved 10 feet. all while within the reach of the creature, and you don't provoke at all for that?

I always interpreted the rest of the feat :

Quote:

You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

to mean that you're not fully "spring attacking" yet, if you can't get up that 10' before the attack. so you have to start far enough back that you can move 10' before you start provoking from the target for movement. am i the only one that reads it that way? or does it just not come up much?

i've only seen 1 PC with spring attack in pfs, ever. and very few monsters.

[Seraphimpunk]

the difference in wording from 3.5 -> pathfinder makes me question the intention of the changes. clarity, or some hidden meaning.

3.5:

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

it went from being able to move, around taking an attack action, to a full round action. and instead of requiring 5' of movement beforehand, you have to take 10' of movement and can't start adjacent to your target. aside from the action change, the rest just seems weird to me.

for instance, whats the difference between starting adjacent to your target, attacking and then springing back, and starting five feet away, moving two squares through threatened squares, attacking, and then moving away?

[Grick]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

by the second step, you've moved 10 feet. all while within the reach of the creature, and you don't provoke at all for that?

Yep.

Seraphimpunk wrote:

it went from being able to move, around taking an attack action, to a full round action.

It used to be a move and attack action in PFRPG, they changed it in errata. One result was that you can no longer use Vital Strike with Spring Attack because you're no longer using the attack action.

Seraphimpunk wrote:

for instance, whats the difference between starting adjacent to your target, attacking and then springing back, and starting five feet away, moving two squares through threatened squares, attacking, and then moving away?

It means that if your foe has spring attack, there's some benefit to getting up adjacent to him.

-edit- I'm not saying that's the reason for the change, just a consequence of it.

[Seraphimpunk]

::shakes head:: still feels counterintuitive to me.
ah well doubt they'll ever change it. i'll just have to make sure i run it right next time it comes up.