I've seen a lot of discussions here about combining archetypes and such but I have not been able to find anything specific on whether or not an ability already gained by an archetype continues to progress after no longer advancing in that class or archetype.
Specifically, I have a player that has taken the Knife Master archetype for his rogue, which allows d8s instead of d6s for sneak attacks, with the Sneak Stab ability. Later on, he plans to switch to an alchemist with the Vivisectionist archetype which allows sneak attacks instead of bombs. The question then is whether or not the Vivisectionist's sneak attacks progress as d6s or d8s.
Originally, I was thinking yes. But now I'm thinking no, because while the sneak attack of a Vivisectionist stacks with that of the Knife Master it is not a continuation of the KM's Sneak Stab ability.
In other words, the character would only get d8s for the levels he has gained as a KM. Any damage gained by the Vivisectionist would be d6s added on to the d8s.
Sneak Attack from alternate sources always stacks. You look at the "effective rogue level" to determine the number of dice rolled for sneak attack damage. The Knife Master Archetype replaces the standard d6 with d8 while attacking with certain weapons.
Yes, he would get d8's for his sneak attack damage.
I understand that Sneak Attack damage always stacks. But the Knife Master is a rogue archetype. By switching to an alchemist Vivisectionist he is no longer progressing as a Knife Master. The d8 damage is a part of the rogue class, not the alchemist class.
To allow the d8s to continue into the alchemist Vivisectionist levels would be similar to allowing the spells of a wizard to increase in power long after he quit progressing as a wizard and switched to being a fighter. I'm sure I can come up with other examples that might be more apt. But this is a simple one that comes to mind.
I understand that Sneak Attack damage always stacks. But the Knife Master is a rogue archetype. By switching to an alchemist Vivisectionist he is no longer progressing as a Knife Master. The d8 damage is a part of the rogue class, not the alchemist class.
It's a class feature that you have.
If there was a class that had a feature that said "You deal double damage with longswords" and another class that gave you an extra attack with a longsword, they would both apply, because you have both class features.
Sneak Stab (Ex) lets you use bigger dice in certain situations.
Vivisectionist Sneak Attack says "If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack's extra damage dice"
So the levels stack to determine rogue level.
Rogue level determines number of dice.
Weapon type determines size of dice.
To allow the d8s to continue into the alchemist Vivisectionist levels would be similar to allowing the spells of a wizard to increase in power long after he quit progressing as a wizard and switched to being a fighter.
Not really. For example, a Draconic Sorcerer gets extra damage when he casts spells with a certain energy descriptor. If he then takes levels of wizard, or witch, or whatever, that still applies, even if he's casting a wizard spell. (FAQ)
Sneak Stab isn't advancing, it's a static effect. Either you have the ability, or you don't.
The archtypes ability modifies 'sneak attack' not a particular class' ability. Read the ability over, it never mentions 'rogue' and specifically states that it is identical in all other ways to 'sneak attack' and supplements that ability.
If it is identical to sneak attack, which is called out as stacking between multiple classes, and the ability supplements 'sneak attack' not 'sneak attack from rogue levels' it would stack with and modify the vivisectionist sneak attack.
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I've grabbed the ability here for reference:
Knife Master
the ability says "When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger (Advanced Player's Guide 178), she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s."
This is a static ability with a permanent effect. Is the character using one of the designated weapons to sneak attack? If so, they use d8's instead of d6's for their damage die. It doesn't matter where their sneak attack dice are coming from, only that they've gained this ability and are following the parameters laid out in it. Byt that same token, their Vivisectionist levels will still be subject to the weapon requirements, and trying to use any other weapon will lower their die to d4's.
It's really not the same as advancing spell levels from two different classes.
It's more along the lines of a Sorcerer Bloodline ability which gives you +2 damage to all fire spells. Is it a fire spell? Then +2 damage, regardless of what class granted the spell. As long as you have the ability, its parameters will apply to anything matching the listed criteria.
**EDIT** Ninja'd
It's an increase in average damage of +1 per sneak attack dice. At 11th level, that's an average of +6 damage when the situation allows him to sneak attack. He has to use the smallest, lowest base damage weapons in the game to get it, and he's giving up at least 1 level in a spellcasting class to get this small bonus. Why worry about it?
Ok, I'm convinced. I guess you're right in that the d8 damage of the Sneak Stab isn't really advancing, and as long as the ability of one archetype is allowed to enhance the abilities of another class/archetype then this works for me.
I'm just trying to make sure that rules aren't abused and things don't get out of hand later on. Thanks everyone for the input.
I will add though that this same player later on intends to switch to Master Chymist, which adds other complications. There has already been much discussion on whether or not a Vivisectionist/Master Chymist should be allowed to progress his sneak attack ability in place of the Bomb-Thrower ability of the Master Chymist since the Vivisectionist does not get the ability to make bombs. General consensus seems to say that he should not be able to progress the Sneak Attack ability, or that it should be limited, since the Master Chymist already has great benefits for melee combat such as Brutality.
Either way, I'm looking at a very powerful character build should the character become high level.
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Ok, I'm convinced. I guess you're right in that the d8 damage of the Sneak Stab isn't really advancing, and as long as the ability of one archetype is allowed to enhance the abilities of another class/archetype then this works for me.
I'm just trying to make sure that rules aren't abused and things don't get out of hand later on. Thanks everyone for the input.
I will add though that this same player later on intends to switch to Master Chymist, which adds other complications. There has already been much discussion on whether or not a Vivisectionist/Master Chymist should be allowed to progress his sneak attack ability in place of the Bomb-Thrower ability of the Master Chymist since the Vivisectionist does not get the ability to make bombs. General consensus seems to say that he should not be able to progress the Sneak Attack ability, or that it should be limited, since the Master Chymist already has great benefits for melee combat such as Brutality.
Either way, I'm looking at a very powerful character build should the character become high level.
Since your player exchanged the Bombs ability to gain Sneak Attack when he took the Vivisectionist Archetype, the Master Chymist's Bomb Thrower ability would do nothing since it affects an ability the character doesn't have.
From the PRD: A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.