Stealth Questions (Yet more)

[Gwiber]

1. 1. Not sure how to handle this. Last game. My rogue, Warrior and the groups Mage. Came upon a fight in a dead end alley. Several Orcs had cornered a merchant and his attack dog.
My Rogue and the Mage both made stealth rolls. Significant enough the Orcs never noticed us. However the armor plated warrior, was not so successful in his attempt at stealth. The Orcs immediately heard him tromping down the alleyway towards them.

Thus initiative ensued, we were still out of a single move distance from the Orcs when they noticed the Fighter. Initiatives passed as we closed with each other. The rogue and Mage still making stealth rolls and remaining unseen.

As obviously the first round was the surprise round technically. By the time the Mage and Rogue had closed ranks enough to attack, the Orcs were not flat footed. How exactly does one handle the armor class of the Orcs in that case against the Rogue's sneak attack? (The mage was engaging in a level 2 spell as his attack)

We allowed the Orcs to have full AC, despite the fact, that they simply had not seen my Rogue until he attacked one of them from hiding.

Should the Orc have had his full AC? Is there any printed set of rules to handle this issue?

2. Is it possible to make a “Silent” kill? Same game. Different situation. Several Orc had invaded a hose int eh setting village, and were busy moving around it, ransacking it and chasing down a small girl.
My Rogue, under stealth tracked down one Orc, and used sneak attack on him, The damage was so overwhelming, he died immediately without a response.

My ST immediately declared me out of stealth (though there were no Orcs in sight at the time, it could have effected me the next round if one had come into sight premature to my initiative).

Is it possible by the rules to make a “silent” kill. To kill something so fast.. you can remain in stealth, and make the body “disappear”?

Like perhaps taking out one of a pair of sentries, without the other one noticing the kill happening?

[Winterwalker]

1.) Hrm if they were not aware of the attack, through stealth or magical means, I would usually use the flat footed AC, even if they are engaged in combat.

If they aren't aware of the attack, they cannot effectively try to dodge the blow. I would consider the sneaky guys 'invisible' until the bad guys are aware of their presence. Which has similar perks to catching someone flat-footed. it might not be 100% RAW, but it sort of follows the rules of cool, and I would favor the PCs in this scenario over RAW.

2.) Theres no RAW for silent kill mechanics, but in my games when a rogue wishes to do as such, and declares his intent before the attack, and then succeeds in doing enough damage to 1 shot something, ya why not?

It's really up to the DM on that one, but I'd be in favor of allowing a PC to do that kind of kill for the sake of coolness.

[rashly5]

1.) I'd personally rule that non-awareness of combat means they are caught by surprise, which means they are flat-footed.

Basically, as long as they are unaware of combat, they are flat-footed because they cannot react accordingly.

However, if they are aware that combat is going on, then they are not flat-footed.

As an example, think about invisible assailants. You're not flat-footed against them because you're aware they're there and you're in combat with them.

2.) For the silent kill mechanic, I find it useful to refer to the Assassin prestige class. They have a class feature called 'Quiet Death' which works similarly to what you're imagining. It's a Stealth versus Perception check but it requires you to a) be able to do an instant kill fast and b) do it in the surprise round (i.e. the target party must not be aware/expecting the attack) and c) be able to do it quietly.

There's also Nonchalant Thuggery which infers a Bluff versus Sense Motive check from keeping others from noticing your 'aggressive actions', which may include kills.

But yes, up to the DM.