Hi forum!
I just want to ask a couple of questions to see if my GM is out of his mind being a skin-flint, or tight-fisted or whatever... or if in fact the way I am experiencing the AP is the way it's meant to be played.
My party and I have gotten off of smuggler's shiv and are in the initial phases of chapter 2 I believe. WITHOUT SPOILERS, please if you've read the story and know how the campaign is supposed to be run, confirm or deny that this is how the AP is supposed to be run...
1) We've been asked to scout ahead of and reach the ruins of S.Y. first, but our GM says that we're only allowed to take away what we ourselves find there +3500gp... meanwhile, the faction we are supposedly working with gets to take EVERYTHING ELSE. The shank of the treasure of a massive city of treasure and we don't even get a percentage for FINDING IT FIRST?!
2) The glory of finding the city too, must be in the name of one of the associated factions. so... we're not even discovering the city for our own glory... the shank of the treasure AND glory are going to other people?
If the above is true.. when does this AP actually become a story about the protagonists, the players? I understand that giving the players some unchecked amount of treasure would upset game balance... but if the AP covers 1st-15th level or so... why does it matter if they are absurdly rich and can retire at the end of the adventure?
Maybe this is the way it's supposed to be in the AP but my GM has done a bad job of making it seem like we'll be sufficiently rewarded... as it seems to me we're doing all the work and assuming the greatest risk, and giving all the best of the rewards to NPCs.
I'm not afraid to get the answer I'd prefer not to hear... but I have never felt less empowered in a role-playing game before playing this AP with this GM. I cannot be sure if it's the negative/antagonistic demeanor of my GM... or if the AP is just written up that way.
If you know the answers because you've read the module, let me know without giving anything away.
-V
1. Each faction grants the PCs a reward (that's presumably the 3,500 gp) for reaching the city, and each also offers various boons once they're in place in Saventh-Yhi.
If I remember correctly, the modules themselves don't mention treasure at all beyond what the PCs would gain through various encounters. The modules are more related to discovering the city and exploring its history than about uncovering ancient treasure.
I imagine it's expected that whatever treasure the rest of the faction may dig up out of the PCs' view is kept by the faction, and used in part to fund and resupply the operation.
2. Technically, the way it's written, I suppose the glory of first discovery would go to one of the factions. Personally, though, I would certainly have each faction offer to honor the PCs specifically as those who discovered the city.
3. I think that more than any other AP, this one is very dependent on having a good GM in order to work well. In a lot of places, specifics are left up to each individual GM to work out as needed. I like this aspect of it a lot, but it does mean that the complete experience can vary greatly from group to group.
It's great playing the game with my friends, but I'm having an AWFUL time... this explains a lot.
One of the reasons I wanted to play an AP with this DM is that he admitted he was a little rusty and I had an instinct he was of the more adversarial style of GMs... For example...
I am presently 100% certain there are no vampire enemies central to the plot (though there might be on a random encounter table, I don't know) -- even though the temple of Zura is all about vampires and the backstory has Zura cultists all over it and the Mwangi Bekyar tribe worships Zura as well... the theory behind my convictions? When I asked to roll knowledge religion and got a super high score on vampires, he let me read the book entry and take notes (when normally he gives ridiculously small bits of information) ... I am also 100% certain we are going to face a demon, and SOON, because while we were allowed to spend a significant amount of gold before we headed out, when one of my fellow players and I were discussing what to buy to be totally prepared, he said since he was a cleric we were prepared for undead, but less so against demons... suddenly, cold-iron weapons were off the table. Basically "You can't have one."
Without spoiling anything (beyond confirming or denying my suspicions) am I SPOT ON in reading his poker face? If I am wrong on either account don't specify -- but if I am totally right It's proof to me that the GM is basically bending the game in ways that deprive the players of agency, and should likely be discussed.
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He may just be running the AP as-written, in which case prepare to face a lot of wonky stuff like this. Serpent's Skull may have been a bad choice to run if he's kind of rusty since, as Are pointed out above, this AP in particular requires A LOT of work from the GM to turn it into a good campaign. I don't know how much you've read around on the forums, but SS is widely held as Paizo's weakest AP, especially once you hit book 3, so please, please don't regard anything weird in this game as a reflection on your GM's ability. If you guys run into problems with the game, I would highly suggest being as sympathetic as possible and to address any issues directly to the GM outside of the session in order to work together to make this a good campaign. It may be a bumpy ride, but if you want this guy to improve and continue GMing in the future you'll need to make this a team effort and try not to be harsh in your criticism.
If you guys do find that Serpent's Skull is just causing too many problems, the revised Rise of the Runelords is a GREAT game for a rusty GM to run.
It's a very hard AP to run for any GM so be gentle with him it takes a heck of a lot of work to make it work well. He could just pull it off and make it really awsome so give him a chance. I second last posters senitments, if it gets rough don't blame the GM and give him the chance to try something else.
I think the gp rewards are made up. This may be a sign of "rust" however, and with time he may [you hope] realize that the party isn't suddenly going to become massively overpowered through the exploration of the city.
Having overpowered PC's is a common worry, DM's [at least decent ones] should keep things balanced but it's an easy trap to fall into to think that gp's are the best way to "control" those worries.
Talk to you DM, tell him your concerns, hopefully you'll be able to come to a compromise.
This helps a bit, thanking y'all for your candor. It helps to know there are weaknesses in the AP that might make things difficult.
I would regard Second Darkness as worse than Serpent's Skull. I have the suspicion that quite a bit was "left on the cutting room floor" in film parlance in SS, while SD simply has holes that the continuity checker missed in SD. FWIW.
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As a GM, I was very frustrated with this AP, especially once we reached book 3. Unfortunately, "City of Seven Spears" is a very unfinished adventure, basically no more than a rough draft and requires extensive work by the GM the make sense in the first place. I wasn't enjoying myself at all and I didn't have the time and the motivation to do all the work myself, so I gave up on that AP at that point. My players were supportive, some being frustrated with the campaign for various reasons, too. It just hadn't turned out the way it seemed to when it started out. Now we are playing Curse of the Crimson Throne, and having a lot of fun!
They'd take the credit from people like me, who did the job for them?
If I were in your shoes, I'd make sure to get my revenge on them later on...
It's great playing the game with my friends, but I'm having an AWFUL time... this explains a lot.
One of the reasons I wanted to play an AP with this DM is that he admitted he was a little rusty and I had an instinct he was of the more adversarial style of GMs... For example...
I am presently 100% certain there are no vampire enemies central to the plot (though there might be on a random encounter table, I don't know) -- even though the temple of Zura is all about vampires and the backstory has Zura cultists all over it and the Mwangi Bekyar tribe worships Zura as well... the theory behind my convictions? When I asked to roll knowledge religion and got a super high score on vampires, he let me read the book entry and take notes (when normally he gives ridiculously small bits of information) ... I am also 100% certain we are going to face a demon, and SOON, because while we were allowed to spend a significant amount of gold before we headed out, when one of my fellow players and I were discussing what to buy to be totally prepared, he said since he was a cleric we were prepared for undead, but less so against demons... suddenly, cold-iron weapons were off the table. Basically "You can't have one."
Without spoiling anything (beyond confirming or denying my suspicions) am I SPOT ON in reading his poker face? If I am wrong on either account don't specify -- but if I am totally right It's proof to me that the GM is basically bending the game in ways that deprive the players of agency, and should likely be discussed.
Congratulations, your DM is starting to remind me of the one I left behind.
(smacks forehead)
Thanks Icy. That was sufficiently vague but a valid answer to the question. I'll be sure not to meta with that info... but g@+ d!&mit I hope the AP gives us a means to deal with such things. I know Carrion Crown was good enough to give up some anti-undead gear... or hopefully late enough so that we'll have some magic weapons. Nothing more need be said on the subject!
You get a one-time use item to use against it.
God help you if the Demon passes the save DC there.
God help you if the Demon passes the save DC there.
...which, AFAIR, is not exactly unlikely.
Would any debuffs lower the odds of the demon passing the save?
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Let's be honest here, and without spoiling much, that upcoming encounter is not well designed as written. It's the kind of creature that should never be presented as a random encounter (even if that encounter is scripted it still comes off as random) at such low levels.
Also, it's not like that's the only Demon in the AP. If the GM continues to keep cold iron weapons off the table it may become a problem down the road.
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Wow, guys, nothing has actually happened yet! Who knows if this GM will run the encounter as written (or at all, for that matter)? Maybe he fudges its save? Maybe he wants it to spare the "puny heroes" to become a recurring villain later on? Maybe he wants space weasels to eat the demon before the PCs even get there?
Wait and see and cut the GM some slack.
About that faction and treasure thing: Your characters should be able to haggle with the various factions if they are not satisfied with their pay. If you just take the first offer IC and complain about it OOC I don't have too much empathy for that.
about the faction, if you don't like your deal...aren't there other factions? Cut a NEW deal, or play factions against each other for a better deal? "hey these guys offered this, what do I get from you?"
Heheheh, that's a good way of getting some extra gold, then.
I'll keep that in mind if I ever end up as a PC on Serpent's Skull.
Hi forum!I just want to ask a couple of questions to see if my GM is out of his mind being a skin-flint, or tight-fisted or whatever... or if in fact the way I am experiencing the AP is the way it's meant to be played.
My party and I have gotten off of smuggler's shiv and are in the initial phases of chapter 2 I believe. WITHOUT SPOILERS, please if you've read the story and know how the campaign is supposed to be run, confirm or deny that this is how the AP is supposed to be run...
1) We've been asked to scout ahead of and reach the ruins of S.Y. first, but our GM says that we're only allowed to take away what we ourselves find there +3500gp... meanwhile, the faction we are supposedly working with gets to take EVERYTHING ELSE. The shank of the treasure of a massive city of treasure and we don't even get a percentage for FINDING IT FIRST?!
2) The glory of finding the city too, must be in the name of one of the associated factions. so... we're not even discovering the city for our own glory... the shank of the treasure AND glory are going to other people?
If the above is true.. when does this AP actually become a story about the protagonists, the players? I understand that giving the players some unchecked amount of treasure would upset game balance... but if the AP covers 1st-15th level or so... why does it matter if they are absurdly rich and can retire at the end of the adventure?
Maybe this is the way it's supposed to be in the AP but my GM has done a bad job of making it seem like we'll be sufficiently rewarded... as it seems to me we're doing all the work and assuming the greatest risk, and giving all the best of the rewards to NPCs.
I'm not afraid to get the answer I'd prefer not to hear... but I have never felt less empowered in a role-playing game before playing this AP with this GM. I cannot be sure if it's the negative/antagonistic demeanor of my GM... or if the AP is just written up that way.
If you know the answers because you've read the module, let me know without giving anything away.
-V
1.) Actually you got a better deal then what you should have, You're group must of negotiated pretty good to get the extra gold. And what is wrong with only keeping what you find? the group you lead offers other things like being able to buy supplies that you would not have in the middle of a jungle and protection and other intangibles.
2.)That is the price you pay for not being able to do it alone.But with most of the factions I am sure you get the credit for finding it, it is just in the factions name.
I am having fun with this AP and as others have said it is very much a sandbox style game that leaves a lot up to the GM,he just gets a few general locations and general plot
what my party didn't have they simply took from other factions... "hey I wonder if they got any honey, or a cup of sugar? I dunno, let's find out!"
It's great playing the game with my friends, but I'm having an AWFUL time... this explains a lot.
One of the reasons I wanted to play an AP with this DM is that he admitted he was a little rusty and I had an instinct he was of the more adversarial style of GMs... For example...
The problem with suspecting something is that more often than not, you find out you're right. But more often than not, you're really not.
We all like to find out we're right about everything. So we fool ourselves with a handy little thing called confirmation bias. That's when we ignore clues that are contrary to the conclusion we've already drawn, and we jump at "clues" that seem to confirm what we want to believe.
More often than not, when we do this, it is actually WE who are being adversarial. And how can we help it? We have already decided who the other guy is: he is our adversary.
** spoiler omitted **Congratulations, your DM is starting to remind me of the one I left behind.
Does the Shadow Demon even get a save? I was pretty sure it didn't give one, it was just "Evil demon begone!" and it went away. That's how our GM ran it anyway.
Also, the first thing that jumped into my mind when he mentioned it was SUCCUBUS OUT OF FREAKIN' NOWHERE! Thought that's technically not a demon I guess.
So basically, yeah there's demons and such in this AP.
I did not read everyone elses post, but having GM'd this AP and being on book 5, I believe he may be trying to keep you guys somewhat unhappy with your faction. Go with it, as a GM I kind of like this idea, opens the game up to many more possibilities, Roleplay your anger in the game and see where it takes you :)