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Simple arithmetic is not troublesome.
Its not that the arithmatic itself is difficult. Its the fact that the d20 system has such a hardon for having every single roll affected by dozens of modifiers. You have your ability bonus, your level-based bonus, your trait bonus, your OTHER trait bonus, your holy bonus, your profane bonus, your class bonus, your conditional modifier bonus, your feat bonus, your bonus for doing it in the street, your bonus for denying another player milk, your bonus for claiming there are never enough bonuses, your bonus for having a pet within X feet of you, your bonus for knowing Bonus Round Bob, your bonus for having gotten to the last stage of Super Mario 3D World, etc, etc, etc.
Adding them all up - simple.
Keeping track of them all - a pain in the ass.
We wont even go into the bloat of classes, archetypes, feats, spells, etc.
You guys are talking about crunch, how many have played games like Champions or Rolemaster. Though I played the latter for only a few weeks, I played Champions for about 10 years. All or most of the friends in my group have played Champions so when it comes to math issues in Pathfinder we just don't see it. There are other games like GURPS and BESM, but I remember Champions vs Pathfinder the easiest.
Rolemaster Classic, RMSS, GURPS, Palladium, WHFRP, Twilight 2000 and so on. Yep D&D (3.5 and so on) is crunch medium-light for us.
You guys are talking about crunch, how many have played games like Champions or Rolemaster. Though I played the latter for only a few weeks, I played Champions for about 10 years. All or most of the friends in my group have played Champions so when it comes to math issues in Pathfinder we just don't see it. There are other games like GURPS and BESM, but I remember Champions vs Pathfinder the easiest.Rolemaster Classic, RMSS, GURPS, Palladium, WHFRP, Twilight 2000 and so on. Yep D&D (3.5 and so on) is crunch medium-light for us.
The difference I find between 3.5 and the various rolemasters was that the calculation all happened away from the table. There were rarely more than one or two modifiers to any action/attack once the game got started (at least as we played it)
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All the dms I know personally, including myself, have been annoyed at the chunky arithmetic of high level pf play. Chunks of time get lost.
Course, we are a group of dms that have a lot of experience with rpg systems on the side of dnd with cleaner quicker mechanics.
I have to concur with this. The beginner box rules, for example, are considerably more streamlined (and are a great example of ripping away complexity while staying true to the core of Pathfinder), and over time we've been tweaking and cutting out extraneous rules and moving more towards that level (AoOs were the first thing to go. Anything that involves interrupts means things drag on longer and more tracking where you're at in the sequence)
It's down to personal preference of course. I play in groups that want combat to be fast-paced and exciting and less about tactical considerations. We also want them over quickly so we can get on with the story.
Simple arithmetic is not troublesome.Its not that the arithmatic itself is difficult. Its the fact that the d20 system has such a hardon for having every single roll affected by dozens of modifiers. You have your ability bonus, your level-based bonus, your trait bonus, your OTHER trait bonus, your holy bonus, your profane bonus, your class bonus, your conditional modifier bonus, your feat bonus, your bonus for doing it in the street, your bonus for denying another player milk, your bonus for claiming there are never enough bonuses, your bonus for having a pet within X feet of you, your bonus for knowing Bonus Round Bob, your bonus for having gotten to the last stage of Super Mario 3D World, etc, etc, etc.
Adding them all up - simple.
Keeping track of them all - a pain in the ass.We wont even go into the bloat of classes, archetypes, feats, spells, etc.
Yeeeeep. Very well said. Better than I could put it.
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All the dms I know personally, including myself, have been annoyed at the chunky arithmetic of high level pf play. Chunks of time get lost.
Course, we are a group of dms that have a lot of experience with rpg systems on the side of dnd with cleaner quicker mechanics.
I have to concur with this. The beginner box rules, for example, are considerably more streamlined (and are a great example of ripping away complexity while staying true to the core of Pathfinder), and over time we've been tweaking and cutting out extraneous rules and moving more towards that level (AoOs were the first thing to go. Anything that involves interrupts means things drag on longer and more tracking where you're at in the sequence)
It's down to personal preference of course. I play in groups that want combat to be fast-paced and exciting and less about tactical considerations. We also want them over quickly so we can get on with the story.
Indeed. If you want combat to be fast-paced and simulate the cut and thrust, then you need to move at a something approaching cut and thrust pace. It is better to be quick than to be at the snail speed of roll many dice, add the appropriate sums up, state the total and see how you did, then get some feedback from the dm. Following this then waiting until it goes around the table until you can attack or act again. Initiative can also be reformed, but that is a separate topic.
You know nothing Lord Snow.
No, I haven't. Really.
I believe I recently surprised a fellow poster by revealing this fact, so I thought I'd start a friendly thread about it. If you're posting here, you probably play PF; but I know I can't be the only one. So, do you play PF?
I rolled up a 1st level PC with Freehold DM once, but never got to play before moving away. Since then, I've met and known gamers who play PF. But either they weren't GMing it or they lived too far away. As for myself, I've never been lucky enough to have a surplus of gaming time so I always GM my one game of choice. But I'm back in NYC, so I'm hoping to meet up with Freehold and Celestial Healer some weekend, and actually try PF!
DISCLAIMER: Yeah, this thread is probably gonna be a PF love-in. But I don't want no edition warring! No subtle jabs about PF, 3.x, 4e or nobody's momma. Not even a HINT of it!
Offenders will be prosecuted under the full extent of the law.
You could try what I've done occasionally. I've been in locations where it's very hard to find anyone who even plays RPGs. The key is to keep your eyes open at work and other locations for those who have that "feel " (that's the only way I can describe it...you just sort of get this feeling they are the types that would really like RPGs) and the recruit them to try it out. With some luck you'll end up with a group that plays regularly that you've created. Of course, this also means that you almost always have to be the GM as well.
This Pathfinder thing sounds really interesting... I googled it but couldn't figure out if you people are talking about the cars or that 1987 movie.
Could anyone explain what this is?
Cars...definitely Cars. Cars with gremlins, goblins and a whole lot of other stuff though...can be dangerous...better bring a sword if you go with the car...
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Hama has it right with games like Rolemaster all it's complexity is front loaded. When it comes to game time it's roll and add your bonus for everything - no BAB, spells scale up, anybody can learn skills and weapons.