Party mounted archer shoots a forest drake, which uses its special ability to move up and get a full attack in reaction. On his next turn, the mounted archer wants to withdraw and then get a full attack on the drake.
Player argues that the mount makes a withdraw action, but his character hasn't done anything and can therefore make a full attack while riding as per the rules.
DM points out that just because the mount withdraws doesn't mean the PC withdraws, so the drake gets an AoO on the archer.
Player counters that his archer will then use acrobatics to tumble away from the drake as the mount he is riding withdraws. DM spends a fair amount of time trying to decide what kind of penalties to assign to someone using acrobatics to tumble while on a moving mount, if such a thing is even possible.
DM later wonders if tumbling away from an opponent constitutes movement, which would mean archer only gets one shot after moving away from the drake.
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving.
(Whole Section):
With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
So no problem there. However...
D20PFSRD: Combat: Withdraw:
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can't withdraw from combat if you're blinded. You can't take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.
If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don't have a listed speed.
Note that despite the name of this action, you don't actually have to leave combat entirely.
This gets trickier, but since withdraw isn't listed as having a special affect for mounted characters, it seems to me that unless both the mount and the character take the withdraw action, the drake will still get an AOO on one or both of them.
If only the mount takes the withdraw action, the drake can't swing at the mount... which is fine, but there's nothing in the rules which says that he doesn't get to swing at the guy riding the mount.
If he's tumbling that's going to take at the very least a move action. Tumbling while ON a mount? Still going to be in the saddle region?
He could use the immediate action part of ride skill for cover but if he is actually using tumble to avoid attacks then he'd be off his mount.
In any case he's taking actions and would not get a full attack.
OK, now what if there is an assertion that the tumble is made as part of the MOUNT'S movement? The mount moves, the PC moves with the mount, but the PC has not spent a move action.
I think it boils down to whether or not a mounted PC can take an action that is ordinarily part of a move action and have it count as a free action because the mount is the one spending a move action to move the PC.
OK, now what if there is an assertion that the tumble is made as part of the MOUNT'S movement? The mount moves, the PC moves with the mount, but the PC has not spent a move action.
I think it boils down to whether or not a mounted PC can take an action that is ordinarily part of a move action and have it count as a free action because the mount is the one spending a move action to move the PC.
No.
Tumbling is made as part of the tumbler's move. If he wants to tumble, he'll be doing it as part of his own move action (taken to move), but he'd have to dismount in order to use his move action to actually move any distance.
Honestly should not be allowed You could let him try. First fast dismount check dc 20 if he fails he falls prone. drawing AAO, if he passes his dismounts as swift action. He can then try to tumble out of range to fire. He would only get 1 shot no full attack and conformation is is the trick riding feat chain. here are the links He could be level 14 and still not be able to do what he wants. without drawing AOO He would have to do all this before the mount withdraw, then the mount can with draw freely
Mounted Skirmisher is the only way to get full attack on a mount. You can't get it till level 14 because it requires 14 ranks and you can have no more ranks in a skill then you total character level. If there was a feat to all full attack and the mount double move it would more then likely be a level 18 feat. And being and archer he would also need close combat shot. so not going to happen. at the level he would be running in to drake.
KainPen, that's interesting -- I could SWEAR I saw text indicating that you could get a full round of ranged attacks in if your mount moved up to double its base speed in a round. In fact I KNOW I saw it.
New to PF but you could use a Full Attack while mounted in 3.5 (PHB p. 157)
And after a bit of looking the same wording appears in PF_OGC:
Quote:
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
You may also Full Attack (melee) provided your mount doesn't move more than 5 feet.
P.202 of core rule book has it that wording. So you can when mount provided you make a ride check dc 5. Then you take the -4 penalty. I still believe as Oladon said "This gets trickier, but since withdraw isn't listed as having a special affect for mounted characters, it seems to me that unless both the mount and the character take the withdraw action, the drake will still get an AOO on one or both of them.
If only the mount takes the withdraw action, the drake can't swing at the mount... which is fine, but there's nothing in the rules which says that he doesn't get to swing at the guy riding the mount."
I would rule it that way. I would not let the archer tumble in the saddle as it requires you to move. This is total GM call on all of this as rules state you can the above. I just as a GM would not allow it so easily. I think that penalty should be a little higher also maybe -6 on that ranged attack bit. The full attack should have been part of the mount bit should have been part of the mounted archery feat. but the rules are as they are.
First, if a character riding a mount moves through a threatened square during combat, the opponent would get an attack of opportunity against either (or both if they had the ability to). It then makes sense that if a character riding a mount wishes to have the mount and rider avoid an attack of opportunity using a withdraw, both would need to take the withdraw action. Essentially, the rider takes the time to maneuver the mount and himself in such a way to perform the withdraw.
If the rider only has the mount withdraw so he can take some parting attacks, the rider could take one melee attack just prior to the withdraw; or, if the rider is using a missile weapon and the character does nothing but attack during the round, they can use a full attack action at -4 to hit.
If a rider wants to avoid an attack of opportunity while riding, I suggest using the Ride skill instead of Acrobatics. The DC would be equal to the Acrobatics check to avoid the AAO and would cost a move action (I am basing this on using a mount for 'cover'). I would use the Acrobatics skill if the character were to dismount as part of the action.
Except that using the "drop behind mount for cover" rules won't leave him in any position to make a full attack, since you have to use a move action afterward to get back in the saddle.
There's no provision for using Ride to avoid provoking AOOs... and there shouldn't be.
Then it would have to be total withdraw for both mount and rider. to avoido AAO becasue there is no where to tumble on the saddle, meaning the mount can with draw but rider takes AAO for him to get full attack, or take my method of fast dismount, tumble 5ft out of reach and full attack.
Then it would have to be total withdraw for both mount and rider. to avoido AAO becasue there is no where to tumble on the saddle, meaning the mount can with draw but rider takes AAO for him to get full attack, or take my method of fast dismount, tumble 5ft out of reach and full attack.
I don't think you can tumble as part of a 5-foot step... but if you're taking a 5-foot step you won't need to tumble. Then again, if he only needs to move 5 feet, why is the mount taking the withdraw action in the first place?
If the drake has reach, then a 5-foot step (whether mounted or not) isn't going to help.
I forgot they had reach. So in this situation no way to get full attack only single shot if fast dismount and tumble more then 10ft away. Because they do have reach. Tumbling does count as your movement.
I forgot they had reach. So in this situation no way to get full attack only single shot if fast dismount and tumble more then 10ft away. Because they do have reach. Tumbling does count as your movement.
Correct... the only way to get a full attack would be to soak up the AOO.
There's no provision for using Ride to avoid provoking AOOs... and there shouldn't be.
Well, we can disagree then.
Maybe it makes more sense to you to allow the use of Acrobatics to 'tumble' while riding a horse; to me, Ride feels right. I like my players to feel that they can try most anything (even if some actions may be far-fetched. To each his own.
Being very new to Pathfinder I'm not entirely sure what the difference is between:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
and
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home (aka the Pathfinder_OGC)
The rules in all 3 sources (3.5 srd, the OGC and the d20pfsrd) have the exact same wording with respect to Mounted Combat. I quoted them in reference to the comment that the only way to get a full attack was Mounted Skirmisher. In rereading your post I'm thinking you meant the only way to get a Full Attack while Withdrawing (with the mount) is with Mounted Skirmisher ... ??
Yes that what I was thinking but I was wrong because ranged full attack is allowed with out feat. it apply to melee only and as it was pointed there no way to get full attack without drawing an AAO.
