You can take it at any time, and the bonus maneuver is at HIGHEST BAB, regardless of when you take it. No idea where the hell TGMM got that last bit from.
EDIT: The additional maneuvers you get later on are also all at highest BAB; the massive penalties the flurry assigns more than makes up for this and apply to ALL the maneuvers, not just the 2nd and 3rd bonus ones, as written. Like, by the time you get the 2nd flurry, the penalties already seem incredibly, impossibly hard to overcome.
| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
upon further review i dont think the mounting penalties are impossible to overcome.
Maybe not impossible, but certainly improbable.
Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): "The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks."
Each of those penalties says 'additional'. And they apply to ALL combat maneuver checks.
So at level 15, a monk using Flurry of Maneuvers, and substituting every attack he makes with a disarm attempt, would have the following:
+3/-2/-7 (iterative), +3/+3/+3 (bonus)
He can spend a ki point to roll twice on one of those, or to add his Wis bonus to one of them.
That's ignoring strength, feats, etc. Just BAB (+15) and penalties (-12).
That can't be the intent. That's just ridiculous.
Yeah, your likelihood of hitting an opponent of roughly the same level at that point with those penalties is near nil.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Just to make this clear: The attacks DO NOT get the penalty. Only Combat Maneuvers. The attacks would keep working at 15/10/5 for that 15th level monk.
No wait, actually that's wrong, it's 11/6/1, as the monk does not use his level for BAB for the attacks either.
Also if he uses a maneuver in place of any of those attacks, he also does not use his monk level for BAB as that only happens with the BONUS maneuvers. So in Grick's example that be -1/-6/-11 for the iterative CMs.
Personally I think the idea is:
1st bonus maneuver gets -2
2nd one, if you take it, gets -5
3rd one would be at -12 then
any more you do during this flurry also get -12 (if you took 3 bonus CMs)
If you would take the -12 on all 3 bonus maneuvers it would be really stupid to do 3, because the chance to get it to stick by just taking one at a -2 are much much higher. Two at -5 might still be worth it, but the -12 definitely kills it.
But the way it is written, that's what it sounds like, yes :(
I think it is ridiculous as well. And that is sadly the way it is written. I think Grick's post sums it up well - if it's ok with Grick I would suggest people FAQ his post.
upon further review i dont think the mounting penalties are impossible to overcome.Maybe not impossible, but certainly improbable.
Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): "The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks."
Each of those penalties says 'additional'. And they apply to ALL combat maneuver checks.
So at level 15, a monk using Flurry of Maneuvers, and substituting every attack he makes with a disarm attempt, would have the following:
+3/-2/-7 (iterative), +3/+3/+3 (bonus)
He can spend a ki point to roll twice on one of those, or to add his Wis bonus to one of them.
That's ignoring strength, feats, etc. Just BAB (+15) and penalties (-12).
That can't be the intent. That's just ridiculous.
We're talking about a Monk archetype here.
Nobody on this thread should really feel surprised.
I think it is ridiculous as well. And that is sadly the way it is written. I think Grick's post sums it up well - if it's ok with Grick I would suggest people FAQ his post.
Sure. I edited it to fix the mistake BBT pointed out. (Good catch on the monk-BAB thing!)
The insane mounting penalties are one of the reasons I consider Maneuver Master an archetype that is best abandoned after level 6 at the most.
And if you just want a tripper or disarmer, stick to normal monk; you'll only face a -2 universal penalty and will have full BAB progression for all attacks.
As far as the monk level as BAB for maneuvers... don't Maneuver masters retain Maneuver training class feature? I thought Flurry of Maneuvers listing that you use monk level for the bonus maneuvers was there just to cover levels 1 and 2, where you don't have that class feature.
The archetype's penalties are still obscenely high, but maneuvers made with regular attacks still would use monk level for BAB, at least.
As far as the monk level as BAB for maneuvers... don't Maneuver masters retain Maneuver training class feature?
Argh, yep. BBT done me wrong! Fixed.
As far as the monk level as BAB for maneuvers... don't Maneuver masters retain Maneuver training class feature?Argh, yep. BBT done me wrong! Fixed.
You mean Quatar? I don't see any posts by BBT in this thread.
You mean Quatar? I don't see any posts by BBT in this thread.
Yep. I should actually, like, read words instead of just looking at pictures.
I question how people are interpreting this. I think the -7 replaces the -3 from the second bonus maneuver.
Is that how you think it is, or how you think it should be?
For RAW:
"an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks" means the -3 penalty is in addition to whatever other penalties there might be. "checks" is plural, so that means not just the bonus CM you get at 8th level.
"an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks" means the -7 penalty is in addition to whatever other penalties there might be. Again "checks" is plural, so it applies to all combat maneuver checks, not just the bonus one granted at 15.
So your level 20 monk has a total -12 penalty on all combat maneuver checks he makes during a full-attack when he uses Flurry of Maneuvers. Full BAB, -2, -3, -7.
In order to work how you're saying, it would have to read something like this:
Fixed Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on that combat maneuver check. At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on that combat maneuver check. This ability replaces flurry of blows.
Changes in bold.
That would mean a level 20 monk, making a flurry of maneuvers, substituting every attack with a disarm, would be at:
+18/+13/+8 (iterative) and +18/+15/+11 (Bonus)
That's full BAB (+20) and -2 on all, with an extra -3 on the 2nd bonus, and a -7 on the 3rd bonus.
It would still be odd for the bonus CMs to not match iterative penalties. If it was -2 to all, then 2nd bonus at extra -5, and 3rd bonus at -10, then you would have almost the normal flurry chart (just losing the last attack that would normally be at -3).
I still don't understand why a maneuver master should be penalized on maneuvers that aren't bonus maneuvers. A regular monk can use trip, disarm and maybe sunder (is that debate still going on?) in place of his full attack as well, at full BAB w/ a -2 penalty. MM can't use other maneuvers in place of his iterative attacks, what's the harm in giving him a small leg up over normal monk and not forcing him to take the -2 on his regular attacks?
Of course, this is stated assuming Grick's proposed change is implemented. Right now, a MM making trip/disarm/sunder with his regular iteratives is much much worse on a flurry than a normal monk starting at level 8.
Sorry Dredging up old threads looking to see if a developer had weighed in.
For RAW:
"an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks" means the -3 penalty is in addition to whatever other penalties there might be. "checks" is plural, so that means not just the bonus CM you get at 8th level.
"an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks" means the -7 penalty is in addition to whatever other penalties there might be. Again "checks" is plural, so it applies to all combat maneuver checks, not just the bonus one granted at 15.
It says "checks" because you can do any of "several different" maneuvers. Such as trip or disarm. The post by Kazaan has the correct numbers.
On side note. I was looking for if a developer or PFS decision was made on Wearing armor or using a two hander while doing this.
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I am new to pathfinder and I keep building what I think are awesome characters but then I come to the message boards and I am always let down.
I keep missing information in the RAW of different abilities.
I chose to make my maneuver master as a specialist in grapple because in Ult Combat it states that: "as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action."
My goal was at 8th level to be able to make 4 grapple checks in one round... (he is a maneuver master not a maneuver novice)
Move @ -2 Maintain
Standard @ -2 Grapple
Flurry @ -2 Grapple
Flurry @ -5 Grapple
So the way I was interpreting this was when I don't move (except for 5 foot step) I am able to do one grapple check at -2 (since all take the penalty of the flurry) then my flurry allows me an additional one at -2 so before level 8 I am effectively able to do 2 grapple checks in one round....
Now that I am level 6 I have Greater Grapple which allows me to maintain as a move action I get to maintain as a move at -2, do another Grapple check at -2, and do my flurry grapple at -2.
I guess what I need to know is if a Full-attack can be replaced with a Move and a Standard (with no movement besides a 5 foot step) or if it HAS to be a Full-attacks? If that is the case then since a MM can do grapples as part of a full attack then it should stack with haste just like flurry of blows does.
So if the RAW doesn't allow me to do this then I would like it to be rewritten to suit my character build (joke don't get angry). Thank you!