if going by strict RAW it seems since they have interact actions listed (which might or might not be intentional), they need to be activated, but since no special activate rules are listed, it would use consumable rules. Consumable rules say activating a consumable immediatly consumes it, so by RAW alchemical ammo is useless and crumbles to dust when you activate it. Of course this makes no sense. If you ignore the consumable tag and just use standard activation rules, you need to activate it but there is no time limit, so you can activate everything hours before combat and it being activated is pointless. If you use the magic item rules, (which alchemical items are not magic), then they need to be activated and fired the same round. This seems to be the conclusion most people are jumping to, and honestly I think its stupid because alchemical ammo is weaker than magic ammo, so it still requiring the extra action basically makes it useless. Why introduce new ammo if no one is going to use it. I think the only one I might use following that interpretation of the rules is the healing ammo for emergencies when the healer drops. As other people have pointed out, the gunslinger is already at an action disadvantage, so creating new ammo obviously designed for the new class and then making it further cut into actions makes zero sense. This is why I am waiting on an offical ruling one way or the other, because right now its very ambigious as to how it actually works.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Ironically, at the same time the gunslinger is the only class who can actually reasonably supply a good amount of alchemical ammunition via Munitions Crafter and Munitions Machinist. So them being heavily disincentivised from using it seems doubly unfair. Technically the alchemist can as well, but they have far more important things to do.
Hence why I've made a homebrew rule that allows activating ammo as part of reloading, except when using Risky Reload. That way, someone actually has a reason to use the stuff.
I heavily doubt that we'll see that becoming official, though. I'm expecting them to say that all rules for magical ammo apply to alchemical ammo as well. Maybe (read: hopefully) without the "no property runes" part. Lastly, you don't have to touch the ammo directly, touching the weapon it is loaded into is fine. I highly doubt they'll go further than that, but a man can hope ^^
I don't know why some of you say Alchemical Ammunition is bad. There are a lot of excellent ones in there. Definitely a bonus to the Gunslinger.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
i26c2 wrote: Why introduce new ammo if no one is going to use it. I'd replace ammo with a sensible % of existing items.
Alchemical ammunition are just the the tip of a iceberg named "ranged weapons with reload 1".
Talking about life shot, we already had a nice mechanic on the alchemist class called healing bomb ( I am talking about the bolded part only ).
Quote: By adding a special catalyst, you transform a healing elixir into a topical projectile. You grant the elixir the bomb trait. If you throw an elixir of life bomb at a willing target, you hit even on a failure, though not on a critical failure. If your Strike with this elixir bomb hits a living target, the target regains Hit Points as if it had consumed the elixir. On a critical success, the target also gains the elixir's item bonus to saving throws against diseases and poisons for 1 minute. It would have ended up with a character choosing what bullet to load ( 1 action to reload ) and then shot with it ( without "expiration" ), only needing to miss ( rather than trying to hit an ally... but flat footed! cause he's willing to be hit! ).
Definitely a "missed" opportunity.
There no logic nor balance behind 3 single actions to perform a single shot.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
SuperBidi wrote: I don't know why some of you say Alchemical Ammunition is bad. There are a lot of excellent ones in there. Definitely a bonus to the Gunslinger. It is very good at lower levels (1-5), but later on becomes hard to fit in anywhere.
There are exactly two excellent ones out there and both are situational. I'm talking about Ooze Ammunition and Freezing Ammunition. Both are good because they change your damage type. If your regular damage type is fine, then neither is worth the investment. Especially as using them means forgoing any two-action activity, which what feels like 90% of gunslinger abilities are.
Elemental Ammunition isn't too bad either, but it is only truly useful when enemies have weaknesses, you know those weaknesses, have the correct type on you, and don't have any other way of triggering them. That's a lot of "ifs". A couple of d4s at level 8 (when you reasonably get it with a 2 feat investment) falls off extremely quickly and doesn't stack due to being persistent damage. About the same for Eroding Bullet. That is if you don't apply the "no property runes" rule. If you do, then both become borderline obsolete by level 10.
The only practical use Life Shot has is picking up downed allies when no-one else is available. This makes it probably the most consistently useful and situational at the same time.
Overall, some (4 out of 9) alchemical isn't terrible, but the frankly necessary two-feat investment plus forgoing any two-action activity make them rather unattractive options.
Elemental ammunition seems reasonable if property runes still apply, even with the extra action. Something to keep pre-loaded as your first bullet for the encounter and shoot at the scariest looking thing for some free damage.
Of course, the main issue is Alchemical Shot exists, but elemental ammo doesn't misfire on a miss.
|
4 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Dubious Scholar wrote: Elemental ammunition seems reasonable if property runes still apply, even with the extra action. Something to keep pre-loaded as your first bullet for the encounter and shoot at the scariest looking thing for some free damage.
Of course, the main issue is Alchemical Shot exists, but elemental ammo doesn't misfire on a miss.
Except you are going to want that first shot to be sniper's aim because with one-shot, one-kill you you get bonus damage so you really want to crit if possible with that first shot, though I suppose if its pre-loaded you can activate and then fire, but it will leave your gun unloaded and won't let you take cover. What I was doing at level 5 was alchemical shot first round of combat, and it is SoT so I'm free archetype wizard and I would true strike if possible (only once a day, but a true strike alchemical shot is nice). Same thing with leaving gun unloaded (no fake out) and no cover, but it was worth it to guarntee that alchemical shot hit and have a very good chance of crit. I wonder if they want the ammo to require activation so you can't use both the alchemical ammo and alchemical shot (though I guess you could first round) for two different damage types, but honestly sniper's aim plus alchemical ammo would be better as criting is better than a second damage type. Again you really want to do everything to try and crit, otherwise your damage suffers. Not being able to use any of the two action strikes most turns with the ammo makes it not very good, though it might be better than alchemical strike. Alchemical strike is slightly more ongoing damage, but it has the drawback. Otherwise its pretty much identical.
Another thing I noticed about gunsligners that is really going to annoy me in the future as we gain levels is haste sucks for gunslingers. It only allows regular strikes or strides, not special two-action strikes or reload. Having the class that struggles most with action economy not get helped by the spell that is supposed to help action economy is another double whammy and not thinking things through IMO. They should really add reload as something haste can do.
Yeah, your Way has a lot to do with how well you can use special ammunition. Sniper has higher priorities starting at level 6, both vanguard and drifter can't really fit it in between needing to move and their reload. At least not with any degree of consistency. I'm rather unfamiliar with how triggerbrand actually plays (beyond looking at the abilities), but I'd expect similar problems to the other two melee/ranged hybrids.
The pistolero and spellshot have an easier time using special ammunition, at least depending on your build. The one-gun pistolero already needs Pistol Twirl to be even remotely relevant, so they don't have the actions. The dual-wield pistolero on the other hand can fit it in very well, even if it's just to break up the monotony that is Paired Shots. For the spellshot, it is a real alternative to Fulminating Shot, or even an addition if you want.
In the end, the relationship of the gunslinger and needing extra actions for anything is complicated.
Sorry to resurrect this thread, I just found it. I am bringing a gunslinger into an existing campaign. I'm the only one in the group to ever try playing this class, and I don't understand some of this stuff (dealing with activating ammo).
If I understand this thread correctly, for anything other than normal ammunition you need to interact with it (as its own action, and not part of the interact to reload) in order to activate it.
Karmagator wrote:
The Activate an Item entry has the following requirements:
"You can Activate an Item with the invested trait only if it’s invested by you. If the item requires you to Interact with it, you must be wielding it (if it’s a held item) or touching it with a free hand (if it’s another type of item)."
If the ammo is loaded inside a magazine, you have no way of touching it. Similarly, when using a two-handed weapon with repeating, you do not have a free hand, meaning you cannot activate it at all. Without the whole process taking 3 actions at least, which defeats the point of having a repeating weapon.
The rules around special ammunition in general are really janky.
Karmagator if I am following what you are saying here, how is this supposed to function with someone using two guns or gun-and-sword?
Generally that is correct, RAW implies 2 interact actions be completed. However there's a lack of specific verbage bluntly stating as such in the same way as magical ammunition. So you might be able to argue to your GM that the interacts be combined into a single action...
Jacob Jett wrote: Generally that is correct, RAW implies 2 interact actions be completed. However there's a lack of specific verbage bluntly stating as such in the same way as magical ammunition. So you might be able to argue to your GM that the interacts be combined into a single action... The extra action to interact is less important to me than the "touching it with a free hand" part. Two-guns, Gun-and-sword, and two-handed guns are staples of the class. In fact there are several feats that work specifically with both and allow you to reload with no free hand (otherwise none of it would work, even the two-handed guns, as its an interact action to place a hand on the gun)
So, (looking for RAW/RAI) how is one of these gunslingers supposed to use alchemical ammo?
Nuclearspatula wrote: Jacob Jett wrote: Generally that is correct, RAW implies 2 interact actions be completed. However there's a lack of specific verbage bluntly stating as such in the same way as magical ammunition. So you might be able to argue to your GM that the interacts be combined into a single action... The extra action to interact is less important to me than the "touching it with a free hand" part. Two-guns, Gun-and-sword, and two-handed guns are staples of the class. In fact there are several feats that work specifically with both and allow you to reload with no free hand (otherwise none of it would work, even the two-handed guns, as its an interact action to place a hand on the gun)
So, (looking for RAW/RAI) how is one of these gunslingers supposed to use alchemical ammo? That does look like a bug. Unfortunately, Paizo does seem to have some QA issues.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
RAW, two-gun and sword-and-gun characters are out of luck, so are repeating weapons.
Two-handed gun users that don't use magazines can activate, then load, then shoot, per normal rules.
Squiggit wrote: RAW, two-gun and sword-and-gun characters are out of luck, so are repeating weapons.
Two-handed gun users that don't use magazines can activate, then load, then shoot, per normal rules.
But doesn't removing and then replacing your hand on a weapon count as an interact action?
So, with a two-handed gun, it would be remove hand (free action), interact (action) to take out and activate the alchemical round, interact (action) to load the round, interact (action) to replace the hand.
so using alchemical ammo would allow you one shot every 4 actions.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
The CRB's guidance on using activated ammo with a loading weapon is that the sequence is activate > load > shoot. With the caveat that these are rules for magical ammo, but since alchemical ammo has no rules this is what we have to go on.
We're also affirmed in the rules on reloading that placing your hand in a grip to properly wield the weapon is part of the reload action.
If a GM wants to add an extra action in there, they can, though I can't fathom why they'd want to nerf crossbows and two-handed rifles.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Squiggit wrote: The CRB's guidance on using activated ammo with a loading weapon is that the sequence is activate > load > shoot. With the caveat that these are rules for magical ammo, but since alchemical ammo has no rules this is what we have to go on.
We're also affirmed in the rules on reloading that placing your hand in a grip to properly wield the weapon is part of the reload action.
If a GM wants to add an extra action in there, they can, though I can't fathom why they'd want to nerf crossbows and two-handed rifles.
Of course, the CRB only had to contend with crossbows and slings and such, which don't have a closed firing chamber. Same issue as magic versus alchemical ammunition - the rules were only written with the content in the CRB in mind and weren't future-proofed well.
Squiggit wrote: If a GM wants to add an extra action in there, they can, though I can't fathom why they'd want to nerf crossbows and two-handed rifles. Okay, I was going off of something else because I was thinking about the fact that you are removing the hand to do something separate (activating the ammo).
I was told that if I was using a two handed weapon, and I wanted to take a hand off of it in order to punch someone, I would need to use an interact action to put the punching hand back on the weapon.
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Nuclearspatula wrote: Squiggit wrote: If a GM wants to add an extra action in there, they can, though I can't fathom why they'd want to nerf crossbows and two-handed rifles. Okay, I was going off of something else because I was thinking about the fact that you are removing the hand to do something separate (activating the ammo).
I was told that if I was using a two handed weapon, and I wanted to take a hand off of it in order to punch someone, I would need to use an interact action to put the punching hand back on the weapon. The rules for activating ammo don't work very well when applied to anything but bows and weren't future-proofed very well either, as the others have pointed out. The actual idea seems to be that you have to have the ammo "in use" (e.g. loaded into a firearm) or in an accessible location and have to spend an extra action to get the effects. As long as that is fulfilled, you can safely ignore the specific logistics.
As far as making unarmed attacks while using a two-handed weapon go, that's a separate topic. Afaik you don't even need to take a hand off the weapon. You can make unarmed attacks with any part of your body, so long as it makes sense ("You can Strike with your fist or another body part..."). Your character can kick perfectly well while wielding a musket. If you specifically wanted to punch someone, then yes, you would have to later re-grip your weapon. That is done as either a seperate Interact action or as part of reloading the weapon your are wielding.
Nuclearspatula wrote: Squiggit wrote: If a GM wants to add an extra action in there, they can, though I can't fathom why they'd want to nerf crossbows and two-handed rifles. Okay, I was going off of something else because I was thinking about the fact that you are removing the hand to do something separate (activating the ammo).
I was told that if I was using a two handed weapon, and I wanted to take a hand off of it in order to punch someone, I would need to use an interact action to put the punching hand back on the weapon.
Er...why not just hit them with the weapon. The advantage of every firearm is that it should double as a club (one of their many RL uses in combat).
Honestly, you have to take a hand off to reload anyway. I think it'd be fine to take one hand off to do something else for one action. But the game's action economy system is obviously being strained by considering the innate unwieldiness of something massive, like a longspear, equivalent to something that needs two hands for aiming to be the same. They are not.
Jacob Jett wrote:
Er...why not just hit them with the weapon. The advantage of every firearm is that it should double as a club (one of their many RL uses in combat).
Yeah, that's what the reinforced stock and bayonet are for. Both are underwhelming, but they are usually better than just punching people.
Jacob Jett wrote: Honestly, you have to take a hand off to reload anyway. I think it'd be fine to take one hand off to do something else for one action. But the game's action economy system is obviously being strained by considering the innate unwieldiness of something massive, like a longspear, equivalent to something that needs two hands for aiming to be the same. They are not. This actually works surprisingly well RAW. When you have an unloaded weapon, Release one hand for free. Do stuff. Interacting to reload allows you to re-grip your weapon as part of the action, so once you do that you are back in action. Not the most flexible, but it works reasonably well. It at least makes cool builds like the Boomslinger possible :D
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Karmagator wrote:
The rules for activating ammo don't work very well when applied to anything but bows and weren't future-proofed very well either, as the others have pointed out. The actual idea seems to be that you have to have the ammo "in use" (e.g. loaded into a firearm) or in an accessible location and have to spend an extra action to get the effects. As long as that is fulfilled, you can safely ignore the specific logistics.
As far as making unarmed attacks while using a two-handed weapon go, that's a separate topic. Afaik you don't even need to take a hand off the weapon. You can make unarmed attacks with any part of your body, so long as it makes sense ("You can Strike with your fist or another body part..."). Your character can kick perfectly well while wielding a musket. If you specifically wanted to punch someone, then yes, you would have to later re-grip your weapon. That is done as either a seperate Interact action or as part of reloading the weapon your are wielding.
I was looking at having a gunslinger (specifically a triggerbrand) with a Sterling Dynamo, and using a gunsword (two-handed). So, specifically I'd have to punch, and it would have to be with that specific arm.
I just didn't realize that this ^ and interacting to activate then reload worked differently. oops. Thank you for the correction (honestly)
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
