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That's because the Core Rulebook specifically describes all of those melee options and gives pricing for purchase. The staves section lacks that and leaves it up to the crafting rules and the GM, thus we can not have custom staves. If the CRB had a table with stave purchase price per spell level (like we have for wands) then custom staves may have been made PFS legal.
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I can understand with, but not agree with , the ruling on this but there are actually very clear and concise rules for staff creation under the "Magic Item Creation" section of the Magic Item chapter in the rule book. It is not "left to GM discretion" as you imply.
For example:
"The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created."
Seems like those are staff creation rules, and very clear ones at that.
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I can understand with, but not agree with , the ruling on this but there are actually very clear and concise rules for staff creation under the "Magic Item Creation" section of the Magic Item chapter in the rule book. It is not "left to GM discretion" as you imply.
For example:
"The materials cost is subsumed in the cost of creation: 400 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (300 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities (200 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staves are always fully charged (10 charges) when created."
Seems like those are staff creation rules, and very clear ones at that.
That's a pricing guideline. Guidelines do not equal rules.
There are rules on how to price a +1 frost weapon.
There are only guidelines on how to price a CL 20 Endure Elements Staff.
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I see nothing in the introductory text to Item Creation that states or even implies the text is a mere guidelines, nor does it specifically state GMs have any more or less discretion when it comes to magic item creation than they do in any other aspect of the game.
The rules appear to be very clear to me unless I have missed some text somewhere.
Either way I can't have one in PFS which was the point of this thread.
Thanks for the answers and the info.
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I see nothing in the introductory text to Item Creation that states or even implies the text is a mere guidelines, nor does it specifically state GMs have any more or less discretion when it comes to magic item creation than they do in any other aspect of the game.
The rules appear to be very clear to me unless I have missed some text somewhere.
Either way I can't have one in PFS which was the point of this thread.
Thanks for the answers and the info.
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values." First sentence of Magic Item Gold Piece Values
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My confusion comes from you saying the rules further down the page for weapon creation are rules but the ones further, further down for staves are guildelines.
It says "To create a magic weapon..." and those are RULES
Then it says "To create a magic staff..." but those are just guidelnes?!?
I still don't see where the cost creation rules for staves state that they are not actually the hard and fast rules for staff creation and pricing.
Also I always understood that SPECIFIC rules supersede general rules so wouldn't the specific staff CREATION rules trump the general magic item PRICING rules?
Not trying to be contrary, I just don't see what you are seeing.
To me it seems like creating a staff of fireballs price is just simply plugging the numbers into the staff creation and pricing equation. Just like buying a +2 Furious Bane of Undead Greatsword is a matter of plugging the numbers into the Magic Weapon Pricing equation.
Is it not?
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ALL pricing for magic item creation in the Magic Item Creation section are a guideline. If I created a custom wondrous item or ring or staff my GM would use this exact section to help me price it but the rules say to first compare it to other magic items and use the table (your pricing equation) as a last resort. Thus it is a subjective rule that varies from GM to GM. One GM may say it costs X while one GM says Y and another uses the table for estimating. This is why ALL magic item creation is non-approved for PFS play. No one gets custom magic items. Only items that already have purchase values attached to them by a developer / writer are allowed. These purchase values have gone through the gambit and found to be fair valuations by the staff.
To me it seems like creating a staff of fireballs price is just simply plugging the numbers into the staff creation and pricing equation. Just like buying a +2 Furious Bane of Undead Greatsword is a matter of plugging the numbers into the Magic Weapon Pricing equation.
Is it not?
The PFS Guide wording is vague, but the interpretation has always been pretty consistent: you can buy anything that's specifically mentioned on the magic item tables, plus a limited number of potions and scrolls.
(I've probably missed something, but that's how I generally think about it. If it's not on one of the tables, tough bananas.)
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ALL pricing for magic item creation in the Magic Item Creation section are a guideline. If I created a custom wondrous item or ring or staff my GM would use this exact section to help me price it but the rules say to first compare it to other magic items and use the table (your pricing equation) as a last resort. Thus it is a subjective rule that varies from GM to GM. One GM may say it costs X while one GM says Y and another uses the table for estimating. This is why ALL magic item creation is non-approved for PFS play. No one gets custom magic items. Only items that already have purchase values attached to them by a developer / writer are allowed. These purchase values have gone through the gambit and found to be fair valuations by the staff.
That makes much more sense, thank you.
Also the staff pricing guidelines wind up making staves that are much more expensive than the "pre-made" ones in the book.
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I see nothing in the introductory text to Item Creation that states or even implies the text is a mere guidelines, nor does it specifically state GMs have any more or less discretion when it comes to magic item creation than they do in any other aspect of the game.
The rules appear to be very clear to me unless I have missed some text somewhere.
Either way I can't have one in PFS which was the point of this thread.
Thanks for the answers and the info.
Staves are not just more powerful wands. They aren’t just items with more than one spell in them, with a static cost per spell with a modifier for whether it is the 2nd or 3rd or 4th spell.
Staves often also confer other bonuses or abilities that don’t have a standard rule for how it’s applied. Additionally, how do you adjudicate which spell amongst 3 different level spells is the one cost as the 1st, 2nd and 3rd spell?
If you’ve ever paid attention to RPG Superstar, you’ll note that the developers of the game state that the section on pricing magic items is a set of guidelines, not a set of rules. That pricing magic items is an art, not a science.