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And here is my usual set of links to past rankings, updated to include this one.
2009 Q4 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2010 Q1 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2010 Q2 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2010 Q3 D&D & PF 1st
2010 Q4 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2011 Q1 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2011 Q2 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2011 Q3 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2011 Q4 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2012 Q1 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2012 Q2 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
So for the time in which the Pathfinder RPG has been in existence, Pathfinder has now managed to tied with D&D for the number of top spots in the IcV2 RPG rankings; D&D and Pathfinder both have five 1st places plus one Joint 1st (with each other).
Bravo Paizo & Pathfinder!
I'm curious to know if the D&D numbers include all of the older edition reprints, or just 4th edition.
They come from store surveys, so the store owners can group things however they want. I think someone from Paizo even commented that store owners sometimes would accidentally lump Paizo stuff into the D&D category, for instance.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a swing in D&D's direction next August when 5th Ed is released.
The 4E release schedule came to a rather abrupt halt at one point (e.g. a variety of releases were canceled), so it's not surprising that D&D fell out of first place for the past few quarters. I wouldn't be surprised if they jumped back into 1st place with 5E, but a lot can change in nine months...
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Oops, for some reason I was thinking it was the summer of 2013. At least all these releases of older editions will keep D&D fresh in everyone's minds. But it matters not, the world will explode in a few months anyways.
It was the popular assumption when 5e was announced. Even with WotC suggesting and later stating it would not be 2013, that date persists.
Chief Technical Officer
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I'm curious to know if the D&D numbers include all of the older edition reprints, or just 4th edition.They come from store surveys, so the store owners can group things however they want.
Hogarth is correct, but what the store owners are asked to include are any and all D&D-branded RPG products. So it should include those reprints, but exclude things like novels, board games, and minis games (which some stores will inevitably count anyway).
What I'd want to know is Paizo's strategy to take advantage of the D&D blackout (if you do not count the previous editions reprint).
Mythic rules sounds like a great way to occupy the empty publishing space, but like any other gamer I want more. MOAR!
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The 4E release schedule came to a rather abrupt halt at one point (e.g. a variety of releases were canceled), so it's not surprising that D&D fell out of first place for the past few quarters. I wouldn't be surprised if they jumped back into 1st place with 5E, but a lot can change in nine months...
Well, to be fair, Pathfinder has beaten 4E for more than just the past few quarters. Pathfinder has been number one in the IcV2 RPG rankings for quite a while.
What I'd want to know is Paizo's strategy to take advantage of the D&D blackout (if you do not count the previous editions reprint).
I think Paizo's strategy will be actually publishing/printing product (any product) for sale.
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Yeah, but it's a unique opportunity "to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women".
Not that I think edition wars are good. Just a business opportunity.
Yeah, but is that enough to take market shares from your competitor? To get new loyal clients?
Not that I want D&D to be run into the ground, but RPGs are a business and that is what businesses do to keep making moneys. Paizo ain't no different.
Notice that aside from the Mythic rules, I have no clue what Paizo could do to to grow it's market shares. But this is the internet and I can play Experts and Counselors as much as I what! /evil laugh
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Well, to be fair, Pathfinder has beaten 4E for more than just the past few quarters. Pathfinder has been number one in the IcV2 RPG rankings for quite a while.
The 4E release schedule came to a rather abrupt halt at one point (e.g. a variety of releases were canceled), so it's not surprising that D&D fell out of first place for the past few quarters. I wouldn't be surprised if they jumped back into 1st place with 5E, but a lot can change in nine months...
To be even more fair, the D&D print product release schedule has been turned down to a mere trickle for several years now. The fact that they're even at #2 is pretty damned impressive, given the dearth of releases that count for ICv2's rankings.
Not that I want D&D to be run into the ground, but RPGs are a business and that is what businesses do to keep making moneys. Paizo ain't no different.Yes, they are.
No, they really aren't. And I'd wager that Paizo leadership would be the first to admit that.
To be even more fair, the D&D print product release schedule has been turned down to a mere trickle for several years now. The fact that they're even at #2 is pretty damned impressive, given the dearth of releases that count for ICv2's rankings.
I'd bet one would be surprised to see the sales numbers that it would take to be #2 or #3.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see a HUGE delta between the individual rankings, if one had access to the actual numbers.
I don't think it would take a large number of sales to become the new #5 on that list.
To be even more fair, the D&D print product release schedule has been turned down to a mere trickle for several years now. The fact that they're even at #2 is pretty damned impressive, given the dearth of releases that count for ICv2's rankings.I'd bet one would be surprised to see the sales numbers that it would take to be #2 or #3.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see a HUGE delta between the individual rankings, if one had access to the actual numbers.
I don't think it would take a large number of sales to become the new #5 on that list.
There is probably a big difference between #2 and #3, but less with #1 and #2, considering who the players are in those spots. Not so long ago Paizo was #2. The players in the number 3,4 and 5 spot change regularely while the top two stayed pretty much the same.
It wouldn't be surprising that D&D goes back to #1 with 5e or even with the previous edition reprints. It wouldn't be surprising that Paizo stays at #1 either.
I wouldn't be surprised if they they traded places depending on quarters, or seeing a brief spike once 5e is release. But I am pretty sure that no matter who gets 1st place, that the difference between the two won't be huge. Two years without new material for D&D will probably hurt.
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The only interesting question is if one day some Warren Worthington IV at Hasbro won't wake up, look at some random numbers and decide that it's a good day to shelf the D&D brand for the next 20 years, and to leverage the core competencies in a strategic environment of forward-thinking development of tactical awareness by making My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic the new leading Hasbro RPG product.
Actually, sounds plausible...
Notice that aside from the Mythic rules, I have no clue what Paizo could do to to grow it's market shares. But this is the internet and I can play Experts and Counselors as much as I what! /evil laugh
If you've been paying attention lately, you'll see they've been working on:
Etc., etc. So clearly they're trying a bunch of things to grow/maintain their brand.
The only interesting question is if one day some Warren Worthington IV at Hasbro won't wake up, look at some random numbers and decide that it's a good day to shelf the D&D brand for the next 20 years, and to leverage the core competencies in a strategic environment of forward-thinking development of tactical awareness by making My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic the new leading Hasbro RPG product.
Actually, sounds plausible...
Or sell the brand to Disney.
Notice that aside from the Mythic rules, I have no clue what Paizo could do to to grow it's market shares. But this is the internet and I can play Experts and Counselors as much as I what! /evil laughIf you've been paying attention lately, you'll see they've been working on:
Pathfinder, the MMO
Pathfinder, the card game
Pathfinder, the virtual tabletop
Pathfinder, the collectable miniatures
Pathfinder, the comic book
Spaceballs, the flamethrower
Etc., etc. So clearly they're trying a bunch of things to grow/maintain their brand.
Good point. I guess I didn't consider those since they do not interest me. "D'oh" said the sage.
If D&D goes back to an emphasis on print products with 5e, then I'd be surprised if the #1 slot didn't toggle back and forth between D&D and Pathfinder. The key phrase being "IF D&D goes back to an emphasis on print products."
This is something that interests me too. Most 4E product was PDF only via the DDI. It always seemed a very successful component of 4E (despite my personal preference being otherwise) but I wonder, given their attempt to reach the old school crowd, whether print will return as their preferred method of delivering material.
If D&D goes back to an emphasis on print products with 5e, then I'd be surprised if the #1 slot didn't toggle back and forth between D&D and Pathfinder. The key phrase being "IF D&D goes back to an emphasis on print products."
This is something that interests me too. Most 4E product was PDF only via the DDI. It always seemed a very successful component of 4E (despite my personal preference being otherwise) but I wonder, given their attempt to reach the old school crowd, whether print will return as their preferred method of delivering material.
I don't know... a lot of OSR stuff is PDF or print on demand. There are a lot of older gamers who prefer print though. These days I think you need both. Not doing either is a missed opportunity for sales and I don't think any niche product can afford that.
This is something that interests me too. Most 4E product was PDF only via the DDI. It always seemed a very successful component of 4E (despite my personal preference being otherwise) but I wonder, given their attempt to reach the old school crowd, whether print will return as their preferred method of delivering material.I don't know... a lot of OSR stuff is PDF or print on demand. There are a lot of older gamers who prefer print though. These days I think you need both. Not doing either is a missed opportunity for sales and I don't think any niche product can afford that.
I would agree, but it seems to me the focus on PDF publishing has been accelerating during 4E's lifecycle.
I hope WotC see it your way though - I certainly wish they'd provide options for both rather than releasing some printed-only product and some PDF-only product.
What I'd want to know is Paizo's strategy to take advantage of the D&D blackout (if you do not count the previous editions reprint).
Mythic rules sounds like a great way to occupy the empty publishing space, but like any other gamer I want more. MOAR!
Can I interest you in some Jon Brazer Enterprises products?
[/shameless plug]
The fact that they're even at #2 is pretty damned impressive, given the dearth of releases that count for ICv2's rankings.
One thing you have to remember is that until a few years ago, there were comic stores that carried the whole line of D&D books and not a single other RPG. Why, because the comic owner hasn't heard of any other game and even when someone mentions it to them, they don't care enough because they don't sell enough RPGs to make them take the time to pay attention to it. I've got one of those not far from my day job. You'd think they'd carry the Green Ronin DC Comics RPG or the Margret Weis Marvel RPG, but they don't.
I imagine most of those stores now carry Pathfinder and D&D and nothing else.
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The issue is that most RPG books are rpiced out of 'inpulse buy' range for comic buyers. This means that they have to come in looking for an RPG item to buy it... the shop I work for has stocked 3.5 and 4e and I finally convinced him go stock pathfinder about 18 months ago. He has 2 Palladium players, sohas a standing order with allience to preorder 2 of every palladium book. That's about all he orders for rpgs unless someone special orders something.
Many comic reders who are not already gamers look at the dc/marvel rpgs as 1) a trade hardcover, 2) the price of a trade hardcover they want, 3) hours learning rules they could be reading comics
Good point. I guess I didn't consider those since they do not interest me. "D'oh" said the sage.Notice that aside from the Mythic rules, I have no clue what Paizo could do to to grow it's market shares. But this is the internet and I can play Experts and Counselors as much as I what! /evil laughIf you've been paying attention lately, you'll see they've been working on:
Pathfinder, the MMO
Pathfinder, the card game
Pathfinder, the virtual tabletop
Pathfinder, the collectable miniatures
Pathfinder, the comic book
Spaceballs, the flamethrower
Etc., etc. So clearly they're trying a bunch of things to grow/maintain their brand.
That's what we call "expanding" the market rather than appealing to the same people over and over. Nice that they seem to be able to do this without actually denigrating the existing customers by, say, removing a hugely useful medium from distribution.
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No, they really aren't. And I'd wager that Paizo leadership would be the first to admit that.Not that I want D&D to be run into the ground, but RPGs are a business and that is what businesses do to keep making moneys. Paizo ain't no different.Yes, they are.
Agreed and seconded. Last time I checked Paizo was not on a non-profit company.
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Agreed and seconded. Last time I checked Paizo was not on a non-profit company.No, they really aren't. And I'd wager that Paizo leadership would be the first to admit that.Not that I want D&D to be run into the ground, but RPGs are a business and that is what businesses do to keep making moneys. Paizo ain't no different.Yes, they are.
But they are privately owned, so they don't have to meet a target quarterly profit margin or face an angry shareholders' board, just Lisa and Vic's own satisfaction or lack thereof. If they want to focus on product quality over profit margins, they can, and nobody can really say a thing about it.
Paizo fundamentally isn't the same kind of business as a corporate-owned entity (barring LLCs for asset protection). A business, sure, absolutely, but not the same kind, and not under the same limitations.
Lisa and Vic are still human. I'm sure they like making money. Plus they are "responsable" for the jobs of a lot of people, so I bet they want Paizo to be profitable and expend it's market shares and what not.
One way to do it is by producing a quality product.
I wasn't claiming this. :-P
Just badly expressed myself. English is not my first language.
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But they are privately owned, so they don't have to meet a target quarterly profit margin or face an angry shareholders' board, just Lisa and Vic's own satisfaction or lack thereof. If they want to focus on product quality over profit margins, they can, and nobody can really say a thing about it.
Paizo fundamentally isn't the same kind of business as a corporate-owned entity (barring LLCs for asset protection). A business, sure, absolutely, but not the same kind, and not under the same limitations.
Privately owned or not. They are a business. One that I'm sure they want to be profitable. Notice I said profitable not greedy. Bills need to be paid as well as staff. So I doubt anyone working at Paizo is going "damn we are making too much money. I'm going to lose a nights sleep because of it". And last time I checked goodwill of the paizo fanbase is not a acceptable form of currency at any bank. If it's one thing that bothers me is when a fan dislikes company A for wanting to make a profit. Yet because they like company B close their eyes to the fact that both want to make a profit.
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AGAIN, Paizo is NOT the type of company to run competitors into the ground to survive, which is what the poster I responded to was claiming.
No I was not claiming that Paizo is in the same league of companies that run other companies to the ground. I'm just saying that unlike some fans that pretend to be purposefully naive. Paizo wants to make both a great rpg and a profit. One does not only start a business on a whim and a prayer. They also want to make a profit.
Since when did Paizo making a profit suddenly catapult them into the category of company that puts their competition out of business. That boggles the mind. Should not the Paizo staff enjoy releasing quality product and running a profitable business. Considering the state of the hobby I would want to have a company that can do both.
So congratulation to Paizo. For releasing quality products and remaining profitable as a company.