Glove of Storing -- Swap Items?

[Oladon]

Glove of Storing:

This device is a single leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If the glove’s effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. A glove of storing uses up the wearer’s entire hands slot. The wearer may not use another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the hands slot.

Two questions on this:

1) If you hold something in the hand wearing the glove, and the glove is storing an item, what happens if you activate the glove? (Can you perform both the "storing" and "retrieving" functions simultaneously to effectively switch the item in-hand?)

2) The text "one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears" leads me to believe that a character could hold more than one thing in one hand -- are there any rules/traditions about this? Can a TWF character hold both weapons in one hand in order to do something with the other hand? (I'd lean toward "no", but maybe someone else knows more history around this.)

I've looked through both PF and D&D forums, and only found one reference to swapping your held item using the Glove of Storing. Anyone have definitive answers?

[Dominigo]

Based on the description of the item, there are two ways to activate the glove. You can either use the command word to store an item or snap your fingers to retrieve an item. So when you talk about activating the glove while holding an item in that hand, it is either going to try to store the held item and fail, since the glove already has an item, or it will retrieve the item in the glove and put it in your hand. Theoretically, you could simply activate it twice in quick succession to switch which item is held since it would be a free action to retrieve one and a free action to store the other, but I think a lot of DM's would rule you can't snap your fingers to retrieve the stored item while you have something else in your hand, and I believe that was the intent of this retrieval method. That is much to specific to be touched on in the rules, though, and general rules say you can do as many free actions as the DM says you can.

As for a character holding more than one item in a hand, it most likely depends on the item. I don't know of any written rules that specifically go into how many items you can carry in a hand, so it is most likely going to come down to what your DM rules. Certainly things like weapons should take up a whole hand when held, but for something small, like a coin, a character should easily be able to hold several in a single hand.

In short, this case is probably too specific for the rules to actually cover specifically, so just ask your DM.

[SaddestPanda]

It seems to me that unless both items were overly large having both in your hand at the same time wouldn't be a problem. However, with either ruling your DM would still have the ability to say no, either with those items are too large or just a no.

[Silent Saturn]

I'm imagining holding several bottles of soda in one hand. It's awkward, and you can't really drink from any of them while doing it, but if you need to carry a bunch of them at once you can do it.

I'd let a player hold two weapons in one hand, but he's not wielding either of them and can't attack until he puts one down.

As for the glove of storing, it doesn't look like you can "swap" in this way-- the description implies two seperate commands and seems to be written in such a way as to discourage the idea of a second item.

[Veldebrand]

If you are wanting one of the more frequently used items to be a weapon you can place it on a weapon cord, So you can just free action to drop the weapon on the cord, free action to get out your item in the glove of storing, and once its used, you can put it back in the glove as a free action, and retrieve the weapon as a swift.

I know you didn't go into details on what you were planning to do, but try and figure out other ways to manipulate the first item if possible.

I think switching items between your hands is a free action, so you can try that if it applies.

[Defraeter]

I remember to have read something about a "killer combo" about gunslinger. But the problem was to reload the guns... they want to use rules in a way very dubious.
For that they need a weapon cord, a glove of storing, free actions unlimited and be able to swap all and everything in one hand...

But the rules and the spirit of rules are not intended for that. And as the others say, the swapping with a glove of storing is more than dubious. No rules to "swap", so not possible.

Another point bother me
"Weapon Cord:
...However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions."

It seems that with a weapon cord, you can use your hand but not for a weapon: do i read bad????

[Veldebrand]

I never said the item in the glove of storing had to be a weapon. The original poster was ambiguous, and I was also about what the item in the glove had to be.

As to the gunslinger TWF issue. If you can understand game mechanics and situations, you can see that over an average combat the TWF gunslinger probably doesn't do more than an archer. Misfires stop the whole Full attack in its tracks. As does the requirement to move into the first range increment. Sure, listing out his iteratives looks good, but the gunslinger has to get to that first range increment, and he has to pray to god not to misfire for it to even come into play.

Furthermore, the gunslinger using two guns doesn't need the glove of storing, just two weapon cords.

[Defraeter]

Veldebrand wrote:

I never said the item in the glove of storing had to be a weapon. The original poster was ambiguous, and I was also about what the item in the glove had to be.

As to the gunslinger TWF issue. If you can understand game mechanics and situations, you can see that over an average combat the TWF gunslinger probably doesn't do more than an archer. Misfires stop the whole Full attack in its tracks. As does the requirement to move into the first range increment. Sure, listing out his iteratives looks good, but the gunslinger has to get to that first range increment, and he has to pray to god not to misfire for it to even come into play.

Furthermore, the gunslinger using two guns doesn't need the glove of storing, just two weapon cords.

Ah ok!!!

Two weapon cords... so 2 swift actions by rounds too (i.e for their "killer combo")...
"If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action"

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Glove(s) of Storing is broken/useless by RAW.

RAI, using the Glove(s) to store or retrieve a single weapon is a free action.

RAW, you must activate the item (classified as a Standard Action unless noted in the description) in order to store or retrieve a single weapon, which works as doing one or the other once per activation, meaning the item is actually worse than sheathing it or putting it away in a backpack.

The item is actually quite garbage when you take RAW into account, since the On-Command feature is a standard action to activate, allowing you to either store or retrieve a stored weapon as a free action. As far as RAI is concerned, though, it's a pretty neat feature.

Here's a thread I made concerning questions which included/are quite similar to this one, and this is what we found out about this item.

[Oladon]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

RAW, you must activate the item (classified as a Standard Action unless noted in the description) in order to store or retrieve a single weapon

The specification of it being a free action overrides the general of a command-activation requiring a standard action.

Off-topic, background, and weapon cords:

Veldebrand wrote:

If you are wanting one of the more frequently used items to be a weapon you can place it on a weapon cord, So you can just free action to drop the weapon on the cord, free action to get out your item in the glove of storing, and once its used, you can put it back in the glove as a free action, and retrieve the weapon as a swift.

I'm looking for a way to make wands a more viable option. I'd looked into weapon cords, and was going to post a separate thread about them, in fact... namely, the "you cannot switch to a different weapon" bit seems by most people to be interpreted as "you can't hold a weapon other than the corded one in the corded hand", yet my interpretation on reading it was "you can't switch [the cord] to a different weapon".

Regardless, it doesn't really help with the wand situation...

[Weirdo]

Pretty sure it means you can't attack with a new weapon while you have a different weapon dangling off you on a cord. That said, I don't think a wand counts as a weapon. You certainly can't Quickdraw a wand like you would a weapon (unless your DM houserules otherwise). Also, using a wand doesn't RAW require any fine movements (no armour check penalty or no spell failure). Since the weapon cord allows you to use the hand as long as you're not using a weapon or requiring fine movements, the wand should be permitted.

If you had a weapon of some sort on a cord, you could drop the weapon (free), retrieve the wand from the glove (free), activate the wand (standard), move, store the wand (free), and retrieve the weapon (swift).

You'd still have only one backup wand, though. The tail is probably your best bet if you want to select from an assortment of stored wands quickly.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

RAW, you must activate the item (classified as a Standard Action unless noted in the description)

And the description notes that storing or retrieving an item is a free action. Problem solved.

[Oladon]

Weirdo wrote:

The tail is probably your best bet if you want to select from an assortment of stored wands quickly.

Tail?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Yet storing or retrieving an item is not the same thing as activating the item. That's the problem.

RAW, the "On Command" (or in this case, the Use Activation method for the Gloves of Storing) subject is separate from the activities classified as a "free action." They are both independent functions of the item.

Unless the Use Activation method specifically states it's a Free Action to activate, it's a Standard Action to activate it as per the Core. The Use Activation only allows you to either store or retrieve a stored weapon as a free action, and you can only use one per activation (since you must perform the Use Activation method for each of them).

Again, if the RAW for Gloves of Storing say that Activating the Gloves (not Storing or Retrieving a weapon, an action independent) is a Free Action (which it doesn't), then RAW, it's a Free Action to activate the Gloves, and a Free Action to Store or Retrieve a weapon.

[Weirdo]

Darksol, what I got out of the thread you linked to was an extremely literal person could make an argument that the item activation is a separate standard action, it is ridiculous to read it this way. It says "On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears." Disappeared = stored. Storing the item is a free action. Therefore Disappearing an item is a free action. Therefore the command is also, unlike a typical command word activation, a free action.

Oladon wrote:

Weirdo wrote:

The tail is probably your best bet if you want to select from an assortment of stored wands quickly.

Tail?

Prehensile tail, from playing a tiefling with the right racial trait or a vanara. Retrieving a small item such as a wand becomes a swift action. You need a free hand to transfer it into to actually use the wand, but drawing doesn't take your move. I thought someone mentioned it above, but I think I was mixing this thread up with one on gunslingers, so sorry for the lack of explanation.

[Oladon]

Weirdo wrote:

... it is ridiculous to read it this way.

Agreed.

Weirdo wrote:

Prehensile tail, from playing a tiefling with the right racial trait or a vanara. Retrieving a small item such as a wand becomes a swift action. You need a free hand to transfer it into to actually use the wand, but drawing doesn't take your move. I thought someone mentioned it above, but I think I was mixing this thread up with one on gunslingers, so sorry for the lack of explanation.

Ah. Yeah, tail's not an option (nor is third arm).

Earlier, Weirdo wrote:

That said, I don't think a wand counts as a weapon. You certainly can't Quickdraw a wand like you would a weapon (unless your DM houserules otherwise). Also, using a wand doesn't RAW require any fine movements (no armour check penalty or no spell failure). Since the weapon cord allows you to use the hand as long as you're not using a weapon or requiring fine movements, the wand should be permitted.

Hmm, this is an interesting interpretation. Quick Draw specifies that it can't be used on wands, but "draw a weapon" specifies that wands do count as weapons for that purpose. True that it doesn't require any fine movements... hmm.