I'm a player in CC so I naturally didn't read the AP book. Right now we are in the trial of the beast.
What I noticed is that this AP is so much railroading that I get the impression of sitting in a train and most of the time just watch the landscape pass by.
Is that by design of this AP or is that because of our inexperienced gm, what do those of you who know the AP think?
From the beginning on there is not much you can decide for yourself (except not playing along and leaving the plot and by that the game)
Later there are even fights where it doesn't really matter if you win or lose because if your are defeated, you will be stabilized and made unconcious, to be able to watch how some NPC saves the day.
Now in the first case of the TotB there seems to be only one relevant clue, because everything else we tried was cut off. The advocate seems incompetent to the point of helping the prosecutor and is not helpful in even the smallest way.
Will this get better or is the whole AP a chuchutrain?
If that's the case I guess I could do something fun instead of looking out the virtual train window.
Well, TotB provides a very linear path and makes that path very obvious; there are three trials and they are about things that happened in places A, B, and C with people X, Y, and Z and there are clues 1, 2, and 3. Go to A, talk to X, find clue 1; repeat for B and C.
That said, you're not required to help the Beast or follow any of the given clues. You could try to intimidate the other judges or break the Beast out or any number of even further unrelated paths. However, these aren't necessarily covered by the AP itself, so it depends on the experience and willingness of your GM (which, if he's inexperienced, may not want to break from the AP's guidance).
I've spoken out about TotB's trouble with inspiring player motivation in other threads (which you probably shouldn't read, heh) and have found others sharing the concern. It is an interesting story to read through but somewhat limited in answering "why should I care". If your character is a champion of justice/righter of wrongs/protector of the innocent... it works out just fine. Or if your character likes money and the Judge keeps giving it to you in order to get you to do things, that also works reasonably well. Other character types are less drawn into the story.
As for the cases... hmm. There are many relevant clues for each (4-8 or so), but some are very hard to locate or can be misunderstood and ignored (especially the first one). The advocate is useless and incompetent, so don't expect much there. It really is meant to be the players deciding the actions and running the defense. The best you can get from him is the name of the witnesses and location of the crimes.
Stick with it; the story is interesting and the post-trial section of the game has some good content. However, it may be worth mentioning it to your GM that options get shot down a lot and ask what you missed and how you could have figured it out. He may also be thinking you guys aren't trying hard enough.
As for your thing about "win or lose"... yeah, I don't know anything about that. Carrion Crown is one of the most dangerous APs and dying should happen a fair bit. There's no place I know of where NPCs make things not kill you; perhaps your GM is being kind?
As for your thing about "win or lose"... yeah, I don't know anything about that. Carrion Crown is one of the most dangerous APs and dying should happen a fair bit. There's no place I know of where NPCs make things not kill you; perhaps your GM is being kind?
I'll put the example where we lost and were kept alive in spoilers in case other players read this thread.
I have to confess, that I don't remember most of the names and don't know how they are called in english at all, but I'll describe:On our way to the city where the trial is held we met some travelling entertainers and helped them some. The next town we came upon was rather unfriendly and we had to help those other guys to be allowed to pass through. They invited us to join them and during some welcome party we heared about some problem. The daughter of one of the residents had been kidnapped by a councilman. We decided to rescue her and in the councilman's house a fight ensued.
We defeated the first batch of guards but ended up fighting the councilman, two of his guards and his tiger.
After our top damage dealer went down we didn't do enough damage so the boss was able to heal more than we could dish out and we were all downed except for our mage who could use his school power to teleport out.
Even if at least two of us didn't stabilize ourselfes (we rolled but failed) we all survived to awaken bound and gagged. The boss humiliated us for some time and then fetched the kidnapped girl to force her to marry him or else he would kill us all.
She agreed and killed him with one hit of a little knife, freed us and we could escape.
Perhaps it was our GMs idea to prevent the nearly whole party from being killed but in my opinion this is nearly the worst thing a gm can do.
What you describe is not part of the module as written. It sounds like it happened in Tamrivena -- the module doesn't describe any events there. Just something your GM added for extra flavor. Your GM made the right decision in not killing you off on a side adventure added to the AP. Your GM may have miscalculated the dangerousness of the encounter.
Yeah, as someone who's run this AP...
Your GM added that whole scene that almost got you killed. As written
Now, Carrion Crown is a somewhat railroady AP. There are distinct events that happen and you as PCs are supposed to be there during or after. In the hands of an inexperienced GM I can certainly see how that would grate on player's nerves.
Also, this AP is very lethal in the first three books. I'm just going to give you that. The obituaries thread is bursting at the seams with PCs who died early on. But nowhere as written are there situations where an NPC swoops in to save the day like that. That's an issue with your GM. Your GM is adding encounters and probably making battles tougher then realizing too late that he's going to TPK you all. Thus he's forced to save you by sending in a hero NPC with a bandolier of potions.
If your GM has done this once or twice, I suggest giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he's done it four or five times or more then he's not learning from his mistakes and needs a talking to.
Your party almost dying during a sidetrek has been addressed by others.
Without going into spoilers, the AP has a definite plot that requires your party going to certain locations, and winning there. The party deciding to ignore the storyline and walk off is outside the scope of the AP.
Since the books are only 64 pages long, the writers do not have space to try to account for every possibility and plan that the party may carry out, and have to work with a sort of baseline that the party will at least do a, b, and c.
It's only railroady in that there are actual goals that the party need to move towards if they are going to complete the adventure path.
I've been finding that as both a DM and a player, I like it when there's a clearly defined goal that the party should be working towards.
Your GM made the right decision in not killing you off on a side adventure added to the AP.
From my point of view this is not true.
Games should be fun and being defeated by an superior foe, being healed just to be humiliated and belittled and after that being rescued by a lowly girl is not fun.I'd rather see my pc die like a hero and be done with it.
It also could have been to teach the lesson that not all conflicts can be beaten with violence, that not all fights are fatal, and/or to ensure that the party looks favorably on the 'lowly girl' which saved you.
Not everything is a fight to the death. The bad guy's goal may not have been to kill you, just knock you down and insult you a lot. You could always leave the trial and go back down to Tamrivena and kill the guy for insulting you.
It also could have been to teach the lesson that not all conflicts can be beaten with violence, that not all fights are fatal, and/or to ensure that the party looks favorably on the 'lowly girl' which saved you.
Not everything is a fight to the death. The bad guy's goal may not have been to kill you, just knock you down and insult you a lot. You could always leave the trial and go back down to Tamrivena and kill the guy for insulting you.
We were there to rescue the girl from the evil guy. He kept us alive to make her marry him by threatening to kill her would be heroes (that being us). Then she cut his throat after agreeing to marry him, so going back to kill him will not work.
My main reason to open up this threat was to find out if the AP as a whole is as much railroading as it was up to now.
Even if I ignore the Tamrivenna incident the haunting of harrowstone and the beginning of the trial was very straight without possibilities to derail. If only by giving a tight timeline.
Honest assessment, Umbranus, is that Carrion Crown is a bit more linear than some of the other more sandbox-like adventure paths, but not by much in my estimation. Like any module, the onus is upon the GM to develop a specific motivational factor for the party. As a GM, I tend to anticipate that and I give a hint about the ultimate problem or nemesis, or what the stakes may be, and I allow the players to design their own motivation. That often sticks much better than me railroading them into a standard motivating factor.
Stick with it, though. The AP is neat.
So far, book 3 is decidedly different than 1 and 2 (my party is maybe a third through) and it may make you much happier... though it also depends on your GM. It isn't an easy book to run since it involves a number of NPCs and options (like book 1 but without the same constant push for hurrying up).
Understand that the AP is linear in direction. You will go from place to place without much choice because your party is following another group, so it makes sense that you won't be allowed to run off in the middle of book 3 to see how the Inner Sea is going. Book 2 sort of forgets this fact and focuses instead on the Beast and the Trial (though it does make sense in retrospect).
Definitely talk to the GM about your concerns. He can choose to expand the timelines that the book requires and give the players a bit more time to explore and adventure about the land, especially in book 3.
Agreed. And you could always kindly direct your GM to these paizo forums, where he can ask for some suggestions if he needs them. :)
Thanks for your suggestions
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For my two cp, CC is one of the most non-railroady of the traditional APs. As the adventures are all investigative they provide a wide freedom for the party to tackle the problem in each adventure. The railroads are prominent in the links b/w each adventure (as the AP is on the whole a bit of a road-trip). However, players while they can be lured by the promise of treasure should strive to find a reason why they're concerned about the supernatural and things that go bump in the night. Make it personal and you'll have more fun. CC is a strong AP on the whole.
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I agree with Wyrd Wik. I would say that Book 2 especially is very non-linear on the whole.
There's a big difference, though, between a "linear" campaign and "railroading." Linearity is a type of adventure design, whereas railroading is a bad feeling that players get when they don't think their choices matter.
A campaign can be fairly linear without making the players feel railroaded. This is something that requires some GM skill, though. I've had both good and bad experiences trying this myself.
Speaking as a GM, I'm guessing that your GM felt bad about having you all die on a mission that he had written himself and had improperly balanced. He didn't expect it to be nearly that difficult, so he tried to undo the damage. His solution turned out to be kinda clunky. This happens to the best of us sometimes.
It sounds to me that your GM is trying his best, and hopefully he'll learn something from this particular experience.
my group has a habit of going off the beaten path in APs, my wife is generally suspicious of everyone and ANYone who seems like they might be a good guy and trying to help and ALWAYS comes up with wild conspiracy theories that are ALWAYS wrong, EXCEPT in this AP!
That's is to say she practically guessed literally, everything that was going on,s o you would THINK this would have been very linear, no? Well not the way she went about doing it.
All I have to say is, IF you don't want to be on the train, get off.
There is plenty in this AP to do and see without following the trail of bread crumbs, while it's not a "sandbox" it's a not a "choose your own adventure" book either.
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As with any pre-written adventure, the GM has a responsibility to tailor it for his group, but the group also has a responsibility to buy into the adventure. I mean you all have an idea that CC is horror themed and the classic monster tropes are going to be covered. Go with it.
--Vrocky Horror
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King of Vrock is very much voicing my opinion. The players and the Gms should agree on some things about the adventure path before they start playing it or there will be problems. So characters who are curious to delve into mysteries fit Carrion Crown best, and that type of characters WILL have a personal intrest in how the trial of the beast goes, and will certainly go looking to uncover the truths beyond the alleged crimes of the beast.
Now the problems you describe (unhelpful NPCs running the trial and being saved from death by some irrelevent NPC) are known trademarks of novice GMs (was guilty of some of these myself when I started GMing all those long years ago as a 12 years old kid). They have very little to do with the AP itself. Give your GM some time to hone his style, and try to give helpful advice in a way that will not offend him - just clarify what you enjoy more and what you enjoy less. Then, ask him if there's anything he'd like you to do in order to make the gaming expirience more fun for everyone at the table. This could only possibly improve the game.