Stunned = Helpless?

[Wiggz]

I can't ever seem to find the two mentioned together in the rules, but if being bound is considered helpless, I'd imagine stunned is as well? Specifically in relation to the ability to perform a coup de grace on a stunned opponent - is that legal, RAW?

[Cheapy]

Nope! If stunned granted helpess, it would've said so like all the other conditions that grant it.

[Wiggz]

Cheapy wrote:

Nope! If stunned granted helpess, it would've said so like all the other conditions that grant it.

So tieing someone up renders them helpless, but stunning someone so that they can't even hold anything in their hands doesn't? Hm. What about being blinded AND stunned? Might they be helpless then?

I ask because it came up in a campaign, where our sorcerer and rogue ambushed a bad guy that was a higher level than they. He failed his save against the Sorcerer's Color Spray and became both Blinded and Stunned afterwhich the Rogue wanted to Coup De Grace him... well, it was determined that RAW, the two would have to first tie him up and THEN they could kill him... all of which just seemed simply ridiculous.

[wraithstrike]

Helpless is a specific condition.

Even being stunned and blinded is not helpless.

[Cheapy]

Blind + Stunned: RAW no*. Ask your GM though.

What stunned does is pretty light compared to what helpless does. Stunned is "just" losing Dex bonus and 2 AC. Helpless causes you to usually lose at least -5 AC, and usually comes up when prone, so you lose even more AC there.

*:

Unless your GM thinks "stunned + blind" means they're at your mercy, which is a possible way to get into helpless state...but that's a big can of worms.

[Are]

There is a feat that allows a a person to coup-de-grace a stunned opponent. That should be enough reason not to houserule such a thing for everyone:

PRD, Advanced Player's Guide Feats wrote:

Dastardly Finish (Combat)

You can take advantage of an enemy's debilitated state to attempt a coup de grace.

Prerequisite: Sneak attack +5d6.

Benefit: You can deliver a coup de grace to cowering or stunned targets.

Normal: You can only coup de grace helpless targets.

[Wiggz]

Are wrote:

There is a feat that allows a a person to coup-de-grace a stunned opponent. That should be enough reason not to houserule such a thing for everyone:

PRD, Advanced Player's Guide Feats wrote:

Dastardly Finish (Combat)

You can take advantage of an enemy's debilitated state to attempt a coup de grace.

Prerequisite: Sneak attack +5d6.

Benefit: You can deliver a coup de grace to cowering or stunned targets.

Normal: You can only coup de grace helpless targets.

That's an excellent point regarding the rules and more than definitively answers my question.

Just felt really odd insisting that players tie up an already defenseless person in order to make him 'technically' defenseless...

[Wiggz]

Cheapy wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Yeah, pretty much. Can't see an attack coming, can't act to stop it, can't take any actions at all means pretty much the same thing in his book (and in mine) as being helpless. I completely understand the rules as pointed out, but it seems like sometimes common sense should rule.

[Kazaan]

Yeah, There's a difference between being 'Stunned' and being 'Paralyzed'. Stunned means you are in-active but still standing. You don't lose all motion (your Dex is still there, just not applied to AC as if you were flat-footed). Paralysed means you're completely mentally aware and active but your body is as in-active as if it were tied up. Making a CDG means you're sitting there for a full 6s round measuring your attack to get it "right in the jugular" for an instant-kill. You can do that if the target is completely stationary and "helpless" but not if they're still standing, wobbling about, maybe even flailing ineffectually. You've got to subdue and render immobile (not hard to do if they're already stunned) before you can sit there and measure out a one-hit kill.

[Shar Tahl]

Wiggz wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Yeah, pretty much. Can't see an attack coming, can't act to stop it, can't take any actions at all means pretty much the same thing in his book (and in mine) as being helpless. I completely understand the rules as pointed out, but it seems like sometimes common sense should rule.

Unfortunately, the game would bloat beyond control if every rule had "common sense" exceptions on them. For instance, combat rounds are 6 seconds, but most GMs run them in a linear fashion, letting players react and hold actions and wait to see what others do. rounds run this way are 6 seconds per player/creature, lasting about a minute each. I am actually starting to have players and monsters submit what they plan on doing, then give each a chance to react if any actions intersect. It is a lot more work on my part, but leads to more exciting combat.