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I'm trying to build a viable PC (non-FTR) with Combat Expertise + Agile Manuevers + Improved Dirty Trick. But all the builds I consider seem to fail -- that is, they're not combat functional.
So far the PC is Inq-1 / Rog-2 and the next level, maybe the next couple levels, will be in Inq. (But this will be a back-and-forth Rog/ Inq.)
One of the things that's getting me is my low CMB. My "dirty trick" combat manuever is useless if I can almost never beat my opponent's CMD!
Finding a way to give my weapon, a Rapier, a bonus to CMB for Dirty Tricks would be great -- some kind of magical enhancement, maybe, would be great. (Perhaps my Rapier is magicked like a Wand, 50 charges of "Dirty Trick" or something...) But what would be the cost?...
Or perhaps instead of my Rapier, I could use something else as my Dirty Trick "weapon." The DM, who will also likely post on the Thread later, suggested some kind of "eggs," hollowed out and filled with pepper, ...or Universal Solvent, or Web, or other stuff -- the main ingredient in stink bombs, maybe.
Does anyone have any suggestions on some Homebrew modifications to how we can enchant a Rapier to be like a Rod/ Wand of Dirty Tricks -- or how to cost and design a thrown "weapon" that creates the Dirty Trick effects using a Combat Manuever?
I'm trying to build a viable PC (non-FTR) with Combat Expertise + Agile Manuevers + Improved Dirty Trick. But all the builds I consider seem to fail -- that is, they're not combat functional.
So far the PC is Inq-1 / Rog-2 and the next level, maybe the next couple levels, will be in Inq. (But this will be a back-and-forth Rog/ Inq.)
One of the things that's getting me is my low CMB. My "dirty trick" combat manuever is useless if I can almost never beat my opponent's CMD!
Finding a way to give my weapon, a Rapier, a bonus to CMB for Dirty Tricks would be great -- some kind of magical enhancement, maybe, would be great. (Perhaps my Rapier is magicked like a Wand, 50 charges of "Dirty Trick" or something...) But what would be the cost?...
Or perhaps instead of my Rapier, I could use something else as my Dirty Trick "weapon." The DM, who will also likely post on the Thread later, suggested some kind of "eggs," hollowed out and filled with pepper, ...or Universal Solvent, or Web, or other stuff -- the main ingredient in stink bombs, maybe.
Does anyone have any suggestions on some Homebrew modifications to how we can enchant a Rapier to be like a Rod/ Wand of Dirty Tricks -- or how to cost and design a thrown "weapon" that creates the Dirty Trick effects using a Combat Manuever?
The fun of dirty trick, at least for me, is the ability to do different tricks for different situations, rather than have a canned default for applying a slight negative to one's foes.
So at one point you might stomp a toe, or tie together some laces, while at another it's throwing pepper at them, or sneezing in their eyes.
As to how to be more effective as a 3/4 BAB class you could use Agile Maneuvers to buoy up your CMB.
Not sure, I don't play melee very often/well, but there might be other feats out there to help your CMB.
p.s. I <3 Dirty Trick :)
My worry, mechanics' wise, about the feat is that it isn't as likely to land on scary baddies with crazy high CMDs, and those it lands on (fodder) make you wonder if you weren't better to just stab them in the pancreas instead.
If only this maneuver was a move action, rather than a standard action, then it would be so much more fun and make debuffers out of melee.
Well if you are using Dirty Trick with your weapon and you have Weapon Finesse, then you can use Dex instead of Strength for your CMB. That'd help you quite a bit.
I'd recommend receiving the weapon finesse and agile maneuvers feats for free.
WE Ray's GM, do eeeeet.
Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver give a +2 bonus for 4k, I think.
A +1 enhancement that lets you use your character level as your BAB for dirty trick might work...It would really help out too. You dipped into a 3/4ths twice, so you lost +2 BAB there...
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I hope my DM agrees with you, Cheapy; I'd love to have Weapon Finesse & Agile Manuevers for free -- and it doesn't remotely make the PC overpowered -- just makes him equal,... maybe.
But I can't imagine I'll get it.
A note, though:
Weapon Finesse is for attacking -- it does nothing for your CMB.
Agile Manuevers is for Combat Manuevers -- it does nothing for attack.
The thing that sucks is that when you build a DEX PC you HAVE to have BOTH and it's TOTAL BS. That is, if you want to play anything other than a Human Ftr -- you just don't have any Feats with which to make it playable.
Weapon finesse will help with some maneuvers. If you use your weapon to do the CM, you get its bonus.
There's a quote by James Jacobs about it. Can't find it for the life of me...
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Weapon finesse will help with some maneuvers. If you use your weapon to do the CM, you get its bonus.
Really?
How can one's DEX bonus stack with itself?
Weapon Finesse lets me use my DEX to Attack; Agile Manuevers lets me use my DEX in a Combat Manuever. Certainly one can't double his DEX when using certain weapons in a Combat Manuever?...
The fun of dirty trick, at least for me, is the ability to do different tricks for different situations, rather than have a canned default for applying a slight negative to one's foes.So at one point you might stomp a toe, or tie together some laces, while at another it's throwing pepper at them, or sneezing in their eyes.
As to how to be more effective as a 3/4 BAB class you could use Agile Maneuvers to buoy up your CMB.
Not sure, I don't play melee very often/well, but there might be other feats out there to help your CMB.
p.s. I <3 Dirty Trick :)
My worry, mechanics' wise, about the feat is that it isn't as likely to land on scary baddies with crazy high...
I know what your saying about the cool thing about dirty trick is that it's something that you can do different things for. Ray and I were talking about some different things he could use such as the "egg" that Ray said before, maybe something like putting cotton swabs in his ear to make them deaf, smelling salts for nausea but what I was hoping to find was some sort of renewable thing that could cause a lot of different things to someone rather than him having to have different things for different effects.
and Cheapy I don't think I want to just give him the feat since IMO that'd be a little much.I try to stay as close to Core as possible I'm happy to make accommodations and make stuff for people but I won't be giving you a free feat sorry.
Also Cheapy do you know what book the Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuver are in? I'd like to read about them.
They're from Ultimate Equipment, the newest book to come out.
GAUNTLETS OF THE SKILLED MANEUVER
PRICE
4,000 GP
AURA faint transmutation CL 3rd WEIGHT 1 lb.
The wearer of these gauntlets gains a +2 bonus on one type
of combat maneuver check (such as bull rush, disarm, or steal)
chosen by the creator when the item is created.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 2,000 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have the appropriate Improved
combat maneuver feat
In my games, I give weapon finesse and agile maneuvers out for free to everyone. I've found it allows for more interesting characters since they don't have to spend 2 feats just to get to a baseline, y'know? The example I use is a rogue that focuses on disarming. A human rogue can pull off getting weapon finesse, agile maneuvers, combat expertise, and improved disarm (and all 4 of these are really the baseline) by level 3, using their rogue talent at 2nd level on weapon finesse. A non-human rogue can do it at level 5, I think. 4 if they spend their precious Combat Trick feat. And that's before they can do anything interesting other than just disarm :)
So that's why I recommend that.
They're from Ultimate Equipment, the newest book to come out.
GAUNTLETS OF THE SKILLED MANEUVER
PRICE
4,000 GP
AURA faint transmutation CL 3rd WEIGHT 1 lb.
The wearer of these gauntlets gains a +2 bonus on one type
of combat maneuver check (such as bull rush, disarm, or steal)
chosen by the creator when the item is created.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 2,000 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must have the appropriate Improved
combat maneuver featIn my games, I give weapon finesse and agile maneuvers out for free to everyone. I've found it allows for more interesting characters since they don't have to spend 2 feats just to get to a baseline, y'know? The example I use is a rogue that focuses on disarming. A human rogue can pull off getting weapon finesse, agile maneuvers, combat expertise, and improved disarm (and all 4 of these are really the baseline) by level 3, using their rogue talent at 2nd level on weapon finesse. A non-human rogue can do it at level 5, I think. 4 if they spend their precious Combat Trick feat. And that's before they can do anything interesting other than just disarm :)
So that's why I recommend that.
Thanks for letting me know Ray we can work with that and make it a larger bonus if you want to.
And I can see what your saying I understand since it's more difficult to be a dexterity character since it costs more feats. However I think it's like that for a reason because using your strength to hit harder is easy being able to use your dexterity to hurt someone more takes an amount of skill that I don't think people will just inherently have they need to train to get it via a feat.
Very true. Maybe combine the feats into one "Doesn't suck at Dex, but still must pay the price" feat? I dunno, you know what's right for your game :)
Very true. Maybe combine the feats into one "Doesn't suck at Dex, but still must pay the price" feat? I dunno, you know what's right for your game :)
I have been thinking about that and if I couldn't find a price I was happy with for the magic item on the other post that's what I was going to end up doing and I still might I'm playing with prices and charter lvs when he'll be equal to the other members etc.etc. so that very well may end up happening.
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And, to all the other posters, I apologize on behalf of Will's blatant disregard of periods and commas; it seems he has no idea what those are. (You should see the emails he sends us).
I think that Gloves of Skilled Maneuver (Gauntlets are soooo "dumb-Fighter") will be a great answer -- I can buy some Rules-as-written Gloves and then, as I get more gold, pay to have them further enhanced outside-of-RAW, with Will's guidelines.
As far as our group goes, we're really into RAW -- well, except me, I don't give a damn about RAW but I'm only one gamer. But the group is RAW all the way.
My PC's DEX is 18 and that's his best score. STR & CON are both 10, his lowest.
Hey Will, if you would, start thinking about all the magics & enhancements you'll let me have put on those Gloves -- one at a time, of course, due to cost.
Perhaps in addition of getting higher than +2 we can put Agile Maneuvers on them so I don't have to use a Feat. Perhaps I can eventually put a 1/ day or 3/ day "haste-like" magic on them that allows me to attempt two Dirty Tricks as a Full "Attack" Action. Etc., Etc.
And, to all the other posters, I apologize on behalf of Will's blatant disregard of periods and commas; it seems he has no idea what those are. (You should see the emails he sends us).
I think that Gloves of Skilled Maneuver (Gauntlets are soooo "dumb-Fighter") will be a great answer -- I can buy some Rules-as-written Gloves and then, as I get more gold, pay to have them further enhanced outside-of-RAW, with Will's guidelines.
As far as our group goes, we're really into RAW -- well, except me, I don't give a damn about RAW but I'm only one gamer. But the group is RAW all the way.
My PC's DEX is 18 and that's his best score. STR & CON are both 10, his lowest.
Hey Will, if you would, start thinking about all the magics & enhancements you'll let me have put on those Gloves -- one at a time, of course, due to cost.
Perhaps in addition of getting higher than +2 we can put Agile Maneuvers on them so I don't have to use a Feat. Perhaps I can eventually put a 1/ day or 3/ day "haste-like" magic on them that allows me to attempt two Dirty Tricks as a Full "Attack" Action. Etc., Etc.
I'm not all that big on the whole punctuation thing sorry lol.
And that I can do very easily for you since in the UE there are some items that let you use class specials I can price those and look at the specials for the combat maneuver monk to come up with some numbers.
Also Ray don't forget that there is a +1 enchantment bonus you can put on your weapon so that you deal DEX instead of STR damage the only thing is that you have to use weapon finesse but that's not a problem for you.
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I didn't know about the +1 enhancement bonus I could put on my weapon to deal DEX damage instead of STR. (Now I wish I could take a couple points from my STR and put them elsewhere.)
I think my PC, when we reach 5th Level, will be a solid medium-BAB-built PC.
He'll still be 1 BAB lower than a Medium BAB and 1 d6 of Precision damage lower than a Rogue but he should, I hope, be able to be a functional Precision damage PC and Dirty Trick PC, giving me the ability to choose depending on the dynamics of the encounter to go Precision Damage attack or Dirty Trick.
"Bracers of Extra Combat Maneuvers" cost 11,500-
You can can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. You use your full level in place of your base attack bonus to determine your CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when making one extra Combat maneuver. You may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks. Finally you may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
Ability comes form the Maneuver Master Monk Arch-Type price comes from the item "BRACERS OF THE AVENGING KNIGHT" in the UE. Critiques?
What about this, since Dirty Tricks only affects a Creature for one round (I think), what about the cost of adding an enhancement that makes it last two rounds: of blindness, nausea, dazed, frightened, whatever?...
I would say yes however the second feat in the line of feats for dirty trick lets dirty trick last for 1d4 rounds instead of just one round and I want to keep it that way.
Also I went on the Home brew forums and they suggested only one extra style per round and I thought about it and I want to do it that way because that holds closer to the item I'm basing it off of.
Home Brew. this is what they suggested.
Yep, Agile is a weapon enhancement added in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide that was pointedly left out of Ultimate Equipment. It lets you use your Dex to damage.
Dirty Trick normally lasts for one round or until they take a move action to remove it. Once you obtain greater dirty trick, it lasts for 1d4+1 rounds and requires a standard action to remove. So it goes from "ho hum, kinda useful" to "whoa!" Especially once you can make dirty tricks in place of attacks.
Yep, Agile is a weapon enhancement added in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide that was pointedly left out of Ultimate Equipment. It lets you use your Dex to damage.
Was it left our of the UE because Paizo thought that it was OP or something like that? I was curious but didn't find anything as to why.
Dirty Trick normally lasts for one round or until they take a move action to remove it.
Also one additional round per 5 points over the CMD you roll.
This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action.
There are two groups at Paizo who put out the rules. There's the Core team, which puts out the core rules line books like the Core Rulebook, Ultimate Equipment, and the APG. There's also the Golarion team. They put out books like the Inner Sea World Guide, the adventure paths, etc. There's a fair amount of overlap between the teams, and they all do work on the other teams. But each team has some differing design philosophies. One team, the Golarion team, is headed by a guy who really likes the idea of getting Dexterity to damage, instead of Strength. So, we see feats like Dervish Dance (dexterity to damage with a scimitar), and the agile weapon enhancement. The former came from the Inner Sea World Guide, and the latter came from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide softcover book.
It turns out that one of the design philosophies of the Core team is that Dexterity to Damage is too good. This is why a feat that lets you use Dexterity to Damage didn't appear in Ultimate Combat, which is really the best place for something like that, and the Agile weapon enhancement didn't show up in UE, despite other options from the book its from showing up.
Here's a post by the head of the Golarion team talking about it.
Of all the combat maneuvers, dirty tricks seem the most universally viable. Since it can virtually be any effect, it's impossible for a creature to be immune to them, unless perhaps they're incorporeal, but that doesn't show up that often. Even then, all you need is some magic sand that affects incorporeal creatures and POOF dirty trick.
Having a bag of holding full of sand and bits of broken glass would be a really useful item for this character. It gives you a practically unlimited source for dirty tricks (since you only need a handful), but you can also use the bits of broken glass to cover squares of terrain. Anything that walks on that without shoes on is in for a painful surprise.
One of my house rules for Dirty Trick is to make the CM check against a DC similar to Feint, instead of CMD. So the DC of the maneuver check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher.
I found that this makes fighting "brutes" as a cunning character a more thematically appropriate action.