I had been wondering what benefit could be gained from the Second Chance (SC) and Improved Second Chance (ISC) feats in the APG.
So I've worked out the DPR formulae for the feats and applied the calculations to an 11th level version of Falchion Fred (assuming he had an additional +1 to attack and the relevant feats but no other differences from 10th lvl). So he's got a +21/+16/+11 to hit and 2d4+25 for damage.
Here's a table that gives expected DPR as a function of AC of the opponent (percentages show
percent increase/decrease over DPR w/o SC, ISC):
AC [] DPR (no SC, ISC) [] DPR (SC) [] DPR (ISC)
===============================
24 [] 75.6 [] 74.8 (-1.0%) [] 77.7 (+3%)
26 [] 63.2 [] 62.9 (-0.5%) [] 66.0 (+4%)
28 [] 50.6 [] 51.9 (+3.0%) [] 54.7 (+8%)
30 [] 38.6 [] 42.1 (+9.0%) [] 43.9 (+14%)
32 [] 29.6 [] 34.6 (+13%) [] 36.7 (+24%)
34 [] 21.2 [] 27.5 (+30%) [] 30.0 (+41%)
36 [] 14.6 [] 20.0 (+37%) [] 22.8 (+56%)
So the lesson here is that SC and ISC are of little or no help when an opponent has a low AC relative to Falchion Fred's bonuses to hit. When dealing with an opponent with a very high AC or against an opponent that can effectively debuff Falchion Fred's attack bonus then SC and ISC allow him to stay relevant in the fight.
DPR1,2,3: average DPR for 1st/2nd/3rd attack (standard calc from DPR olympics thread)
DPR2-, DPR3-: DPR for 2nd/3rd attack calculated against an AC 5 higher
LH1 - likelihood of 1st attack landing
Second Chance DPR = DPR1*(2 - LH1) + (DPR2 + DPR3)*LH1
Im Second Chance DPR = DPR1*(2 - LH1) + (DPR2 + DPR3)*LH1 + (DPR2- + DPR3-)*(1-LH1)
In conclusion, I likely wouldn't build a fighter around SC and ISC unless I expect my to hit bonuses to be low (say using Power Attack at the same time as Combat Expertise) or had a very specific reason why it is important that the first attack hit (say firing a heavily enchanted arrow). That being said I wouldn't rule out the notion that there are other builds that might get very good use out of SC/ISC.
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Spent some time thinking about how to build a front line martial character that makes good use of Combat Expertise + Second Chance.
The idea here is that Second Chance helps when your opponents AC is effectively higher because you are Power Attacking, using Combat Expertise or the opponent just has plain high AC. Effectively you can think of this Cavalier as a melee switch-hitter where he switches between high offense and highly defensive modes.
(takes dual-minded trait for +2 to will saves)
Feats:
1 Combat Expertise
3 Combat Reflexes
3 Bodyguard (from Intercept Honorguard feature)
5 Power Attack
6 Second chance (Cavalier bonus feat)
7 Iron Will
8 Stand Still (from Stem the Tide Order of the Shield feature)
9 Improved Critical
Teamwork feats (from Tactician and Greater Tactician)
1 Pack Attack (or Swap Places)
9 Sieze the Moment (allows an AoO when ally confirms crit)
The beauty of the build is not that he's always going to be a DPR monster all the time but rather that he forces his opponents to significantly change their tactics (by focusing their fire on him while he turtles up and protects his friends) or else he becomes a DPR monster (albeit not as often as an optimized fighter).
- If an enemy is attacking his friends then he can step in and buff their AC by +3 against individual attacks by spending AoOs via bodyguard while Power Attacking and Challenging for damage that puts him on even ground with an optimized fighter (Second Chance helps increase his DPR here, especially against an opponent with high AC).
- If the enemies want to sneak around him he can stop them in their tracks while doing damage with an AoO via Stand Still (improved by Order of the Shield).
- If the opponent instead turns his attention to the Cavalier then he can raise his defenses in an instant with Combat Expertise and possibly Fighting Defensively as well (I'm going to assume he has 3+ ranks in acrobatics). Second Chance helps him maintain a more significant fraction of his "optimal" damage when in this more defensive stance. Keep in mind that since he only needs to hit AC 10 with Aid Another for Bodyguard he is still buffing his allies' AC even when in his most defensive posture.
A magus might get decent use from SC. They have less attack bonuses, and securing the one hit will let you deliver your touch spell.
If your Cavalier build works in practice, it might solve the "Tanking" problem.
ie- How do you protect the party? if you focus on defence, monsters ignore you, and if you focus on offence you loose durability. The usual solution is to go for combat maneuvers or just split the difference.
A magus might get decent use from SC. They have less attack bonuses, and securing the one hit will let you deliver your touch spell.
Hadn't thought of that but definitely seems like a good idea.
If your Cavalier build works in practice, it might solve the "Tanking" problem.
Here's what I was looking for in my Cavalier design:
- Strong ability to withstand hp damage:
- Heavy armor, full d10 HD.
- Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively when needed.
- Resolve Order of the Shield ability acts as "poor man's" DR.
- Respectable Fort and Will saves
- Cavalier has high base Fort save and presumably good CON.
- Will save is propped up by Dual-minded racial option, Iron Will and hopefully a bit of WIS bonus.
- Ability to maintain enemies' focus
- Increases allies' AC via enhanced Bodyguard.
- Restrict enemies' movement via Stand Still.
- Can reposition vulnerable allies via Swap Places.
- Can drop defenses to do substantial DPR.
- Challenge ability punishes enemies who attack allies by giving bonuses to hit to Cavalier.
- Combines a high crit range with Sieze the Moment - synergizes well with other high-crit allies.
The Cavalier is a build I've been thinking about for some time as an evolution of a Samurai I've been playing in RotRL (I've put some notes below if you're interested).
Here is my Samurai from our RotRL campaign. I got the idea when I was designing a fighter to be a tank, actually. I had a list of criteria (an earlier version of the list above) I was building to meet but was dissatisfied by the difficulty in getting a good will save. I started reading the Samurai class and was able to make a build that was comparable to my fighter draft in terms of DPR (when challenging) and AC/HP but with better saves and a great mount. To be fair the fighter had a lot more combat options and at later level will have more effective ranged combat options.
In addition to being tons of fun from a RP perspective he's an excellent, albeit more traditional, solution to the tank problem (resilient w.r.t to HP and saving throws, designed to draw "aggro" by doing lots of damage). What really makes the Samurai though are the excellent class and order abilities (notably Resolve, Greater Resolve, Weapon Training, Honor in All Things and Way of the Samurai).
Human Order of the Warrior Samurai
1 Power Attack
1H Weapon Focus (katana)
3 Furious Focus
5 Weapon Specialization (katana)
6S Dodge
7 Toughness
9 Critical Focus
11 Sickening Critical
Weapon specialization and toughness were chosen for RP purposes although they provide reasonable mechanical bonuses. I would recommend substituting Iron Will for one of them (although Improved Iron Will is superfluous for a Samurai IMO). His chosen weapon is katana (so he gets Quickdraw for that weapon along with a +2 to confirm criticals) and with a keen katana in his hands he can really tear it up (especially if his Challenge is in play).
Put a lance in his hands when he's on his man-eating-murder-horse mount add a dash of Way of the Samurai (roll 3 d20's for an attack, saving throw or skill check, take the best roll) and he's almost certain to hit (with a 15% chance to crit) causing lots of carnage.
At 15th level Strike True with a Naginata (1d8 damage, x4 crit weapon) will definitely ruin somebody's day (standard action, 1/day: automatic crit threat if it hits (with a +4 to confirm from Critical Focus), does max damage, ignores DR and causes the target to be blinded, deafened, sickened or staggered for 1d4 rounds, Samurai's choice). It hurts just thinking about it.