It takes a standard action so no combining it with a full attack. It has to hit adjacent enemies. I really don't see the point in taking this feat anymore. It is almost as situational as 3.5 Cleave was. I understand greatcleave allows as many attacks as there are adjacent creatures within reach but even then I am not very impressed. For two more feats I could get whirlwind and hit ALL the enemies within reach (which with a spiked chain or other reach weapon would include a much bigger radius)...
Thoughts?
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Sometimes you have to use a move action in order to make another attack, so yes there is a place for making standard actions more effective.
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Before you get multiple attacks get two attacks at full BAB if the first one hits. That makes it pretty good at first level. As a fighter you can just trade it out later if you use your bonus feat to pick it up. Whirlwind is a bad feat also. It has too many prereqs, and almost requires you to be surrounded. Tactical enemies will just use aid attack to attack you or trip you if they can't hit you otherwise. Once you are down your AC drops by 4. That also drops your CMD. From there they can disarm you.....
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i would take it.
two attacks after moving is better than 1.
sometimes you are slowed, etc, and only have a standard action.
and you can even ready it. CLEAVE ON!
Before you get multiple attacks get two attacks at full BAB if the first one hits. That makes it pretty good at first level. As a fighter you can just trade it out later if you use your bonus feat to pick it up. Whirlwind is a bad feat also. It has too many prereqs, and almost requires you to be surrounded. Tactical enemies will just use aid attack to attack you or trip you if they can't hit you otherwise. Once you are down your AC drops by 4. That also drops your CMD. From there they can disarm you.....
The same drawbacks are for cleave. I understand the too many prerequisites for whirlwind witch is why I have only had 1 character in almost a decade of 3.X/Pathfinder gaming have it. But in comparison to Pathfinder cleave it just seems like a much better option for hitting multiple opponents
The thing about Cleave is that it's nice in action economy. So instead of having to move, and swing at one guard, I could move, and swing at both guards with the Cleave feat.
One of the bigger issues is the whole "Penalty to AC" thing, but that's a compromise the same as Power Attack. Moar damage? Sure, but you're chancing it.
Same thing here. Moar attacks? Sure, but it'll come back to bite you if you're not tactful in its use. Besides, there are other Cleave feats that you can take to make the feats in general worthwhile, even the 3.5 version of "Cleave," where when you kill a target you can make an attack against an additional adjacent target.
Even so, the greatest thing about Cleave is that it's great for weeding out numbers, which, until you get iterative attacks, is hardly done well without such a feat.
Cleave = 2 attacks at your full BAB. Even at level 10 a fighter cannot do better unless he has haste. Considering Power Attack is a gimme for most melee builds anyhow Cleave is really just 1 feat not 2.
Whirlwind attack is a full-round action, thus it is VERY hard to set up. I can get a Great Cleave off on ALL of the same guys as a Whirlwind attack and still only spend a standard action. This allows me to move in and great cleave. Whirlwind requires you to move in, make a single attack, and then spend a round getting pounded on until you can whirlwind.
- Gauss
Cleave = 2 attacks at your full BAB. Even at level 10 a fighter cannot do better unless he has haste. Considering Power Attack is a gimme for most melee builds anyhow Cleave is really just 1 feat not 2.
Whirlwind attack is a full-round action, thus it is VERY hard to set up. I can get a Great Cleave off on ALL of the same guys as a Whirlwind attack and still only spend a standard action. This allows me to move in and great cleave. Whirlwind requires you to move in, make a single attack, and then spend a round getting pounded on until you can whirlwind.
- Gauss
How could you cleave all the same opponents as whirlwind?
X0X
0P0
X0X
Using the above diagram where X is an enemy, P is the player and 0 is and empty square cleave would not work since none of the enemies are adjacent while whirwind would hit them all. The diagram gets even bigger with a reach weapon but I didn't want to space all that out. Also whirwind could hit flanking creatures while cleave would not.
I do definitely agree with the action economy notion, the difficulty for setting it up and the easier prerequisites though. I guess cleave does have its place but it just seems like a waste of a pair of feats (since cleave by itself does not seem nearly as good as greatcleave in my mind) that are so situational.
If you are asking is cleave a feat I would keep, that is a different question than asking is it one I would pick up.
Lord Phrofet:
Sorry, I had just come from the whirlwind attack thread and a bit of it crossed over. I failed to state that the presumption is that in the case of Whirlwind attack it is mainly useful when there are many enemies. Thus, they should be packed together. This sets up both Whirlwind attack and Great Cleave nicely.
Your example is correct in that they could be separated and thus negate Cleave. But the situation you set up would be rather rare I think.
Regarding the usefulness of Great Cleave..I actually think it is less useful. Hitting 2 monsters for the price of 1 attack when you only have 1 attack likely to hit is great. The chances of running into 2 is pretty decent. The chances of running into enough to make great cleave useful is less likely. This is also a problem with Whirlwind attack.
- Gauss
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Why would anyone take Cleave?
To qualify for Cleaving Finish.
-Matt
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Cleave is a feat that helps you kill those pesky swarms of low CR enemies that tend to jump you at early levels, and once that's over, you swap it out for something more jazzy.
That's of course assuming we're talking Fighters, other classes likely should pick something else.
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The bestial leaper(?or one of the others) rage power lets a barbarian move and do a standard action inside the move. I think Cleave is pretty sexy in that combination.
Also Cleave opens up some nice follow up feats.
I have to agree, cleave is a great feat and works way better than the 3.5 version. Same with Great Cleave.
Whirlwind attack is perfect for ninjas with invisible blade and whip mastery.^^
I could see a case for a dwarf using Great Cleave at higher levels, assuming the DM doesn't use one or two creature encounters constantly.
The Giant Killer feat and its prerequisites combines with Cleave Through has some interesting potential.
It is a bit of a niche case though, and restricts your race, but I've seen people play races for pretty odd reasons.
(which with a spiked chain or other reach weapon would include a much bigger radius)...
The people above have given all the points I would have.
I do want to ask though: Did spiked chain have reach in Pathfinder? I thought it didn't.
I do want to ask though: Did spiked chain have reach in Pathfinder? I thought it didn't.The Spiked chain had reach during the Pathfinder Beta. They removed the reach property when the final game was released.
That is what I thought. Thanks. Back to the cleave conversation.....
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I find cleave to be a great option for a wide variety on non-full BAB classes. If you have 3/4 BAB then you are not getting a third attack until lvl 15. At this point two attacks at full BAB is better than two attacks using the standard -5 to the second.
Whirlwind attack is perfect for ninjas with invisible blade and whip mastery.^^
You need improved whip mastery in order to threaten, and then you only get a 10 foot radius, not 15. Any reach weapon would do the same and not require the whip feats.
My main problem with Cleave is that the secondary target has to be adjacent to the first; in games I play I rarely see enemies in that formation (at least not passed the first round), as enemies tend to move to flank or engage other targets, so they are clustered but 10ft apart. I'd like it more if the secondary target only had to be adjacent to you >_>
Whirlwind attack is perfect for ninjas with invisible blade and whip mastery.^^You need improved whip mastery in order to threaten, and then you only get a 10 foot radius, not 15. Any reach weapon would do the same and not require the whip feats.
To make a full-action whrilwind attack against all enemies in reach you don´t need to threaten. Whip gives 15" and invisible blade ensures sneak attack damage, what means you would give every enemy in reach sneak attack damage...quite nice i think, but super feat intensive.
Chaos, thats why I linked the Giant Killer and Cleave Through feats. Sure, it requires being a dwarf, and 11+ (well, orc hewer and goblin cleaver have lower reqs for the no adjacent thing) but...yeah. It...could get fun.
Chaos, thats why I linked the Giant Killer and Cleave Through feats. Sure, it requires being a dwarf, and 11+ (well, orc hewer and goblin cleaver have lower reqs for the no adjacent thing) but...yeah. It...could get fun.
Yeah that does seem like it has potential, but as you said it's a little too niche (with all the prereqs, 11 bab, and dwarf... so mid-high level dwarf fighter). Too much investment.
he explained you only need the lower level pre-req goblin cleaver. orc hewer upgrades the size of enemy it works against. it is dwarf only, but hey, dwarves are awesome :-)
if you ever have encounters inside buildings or with 'battlefield clutter' outside, having adjacent enemies is FAR from unheard of. heck, it's a free attack on the familiar of anybody who has one and has it sitting on their shoulder or whatever to always be with them and benefit from their saving throw 'umbrella'. likewise for mounts.
To make a full-action whrilwind attack against all enemies in reach you don´t need to threaten. Whip gives 15" and invisible blade ensures sneak attack damage, what means you would give every enemy in reach sneak attack damage...quite nice i think, but super feat intensive.Whirlwind attack is perfect for ninjas with invisible blade and whip mastery.^^You need improved whip mastery in order to threaten, and then you only get a 10 foot radius, not 15. Any reach weapon would do the same and not require the whip feats.
I checked before I commented the first time, and I would have sworn the word "threaten" was in the Whirlwind Attack feat somewhere. I checked again though, and you're right.
Ignore me, then. Carry on.
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My game experience involves a lot of moving around in battles, so feats like Cleave stay useful at all levels.
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Great Cleave + Improved Cleaving Finish + Cornagon Smash + Lunge
Use any weapon that lets you hit close and at reach (or use Catch Off Guard to bash with the haft of your polearm)
It's like playing Dynasty Warriors!
Chaos, thats why I linked the Giant Killer and Cleave Through feats. Sure, it requires being a dwarf, and 11+ (well, orc hewer and goblin cleaver have lower reqs for the no adjacent thing) but...yeah. It...could get fun.Yeah that does seem like it has potential, but as you said it's a little too niche (with all the prereqs, 11 bab, and dwarf... so mid-high level dwarf fighter). Too much investment.
Yeah, but goblin cleaver has a really low baby req, or hewer isn't much more, that covers up to your size(enlarged dwarf =large). So it's viable as you level.
Humans can do it as well with that feat from ARG, and I'm not sure, but would adopted do it or is that solely for traits?
Cleave through would be a nice add on at 11+ at that point. If your a fighter, you could actually get Giant Killer at 12, through retraining, so it'd make an interesting pfs char I suppose.
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you don't need literal 10' corridors to encourage allies being adjacent.
movement blocking/slowing objects 10' apart work similarly, even if you COULD 'run around them', that uses extra movement/actions. similar area control effects can be CREATED by spell AoE's, etc. (Black Tentacles). these don't even need to be REAL objects/terrain, but could be illusions... and even enemy 'perceptions' can encourage them do so, e.g. if they believe the whole area is trapped, following a path an ally demonstrated to be safe (by moving over it without anything bad happening). similar dynamics can be created by enemies avoiding somebody on your side/ a summons that they don't want to mess with. allies often end up adjacent if they need to receive a touch spell. after a dimension door everybody who travelled will be adjacent to each other (due to touch spell). etc.
obviously, enemies won't ALWAYS be adjacent to each other, but it's not that rare of an event either.
needing to move, spend your move action on something else, or be unable to spend a full-round (slowed, etc) are things that can and do happen, and having options to be effective when you are in a bad position often ends up being useful (saving your ass). when you aren't in a bad position and can full attack non-stop you are already at peak performance, and don't need as much extra help from feats.
Cleave is a strong feat for a "cork"-type who plans to keep himself between the enemy and the cork's squishy allies. Since the cork is already placing himself where he can obstuct enemy movement, his foes will tend to clump around him. My daughter's "corky" dwarf cleric has wrought havok with Cleave: She will be 8th level before she gets a second iterative, so that second strike seriously increases her melee power. She looks forward to picking up Giant Killer and cleaving even more foes.
Doomed Hero: You cannot use Catch Off-Guard to reduce the reach of a polearm with the reach property to 5'.
First, even if you use the polearm with the reach property as an improvised weapon it still has the reach property. Thus, you cannot use it against adjacent foes.
Second, there is nothing in Catch Off-Guard that allows you to turn a reach weapon into a non-reach weapon.
If you want to do that use the Polearm Master Fighter Archetype. The level 2 ability allows this.
- Gauss
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Using catch-off guard with objects that are weapons is kind of murky, but I don't see why you couldn't do it and I don't see why it would still have all of its weapon qualities. It loses it's normal crit and range, why not reach? In fact I think it would lose all of them except fragile.
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RBR
RXR
RRR
Assuming
B - big bad guy
R - Rat
X - Player
Someone mentioned 'a bag of rats'. By RAW could you really use greater cleave + improved cleaving finish to attack big bad guy 8 times?
I use cleave with my warrior all the time it lets me hit two opponents and all they have too be is within reach.
Now when I reach lv six the only time it will be useful is when I want too move and attack and hit two people but until then its good.
not quite true namelessone, in PRPG the targets also need to be adjacent to each other
(when you initiate the Cleave according to Paizo, i.e. you can't 5' step to threaten the 2nd target)
Cleave is still a good deal for BAB6 characters because both attacks are at full BAB,
so assuming you have adjacent targets, both of whom you want to attack,
it may well be preferable to Cleave them rather than using a Full Attack action.
Of course, Cleave is 'gambling' that you will hit the first target, while Full Attack isn't dependent on that,
so both actions certainly have their pros and cons.
not quite true namelessone, in PRPG the targets also need to be adjacent to each other
(when you initiate the Cleave according to Paizo, i.e. you can't 5' step to threaten the 2nd target)
Cleave is still a good deal for BAB6 characters because both attacks are at full BAB,
so assuming you have adjacent targets, both of whom you want to attack,
it may well be preferable to Cleave them rather than using a Full Attack action.
Of course, Cleave is 'gambling' that you will hit the first target, while Full Attack isn't dependent on that,
so both actions certainly have their pros and cons.
True... one con to mention is that D&D (and thus Pathfinder) rewards taking not bad guys, not injuring them. A bad guy on 1HP is just as deadly in terms of generating damage against you as one on full HPs.
As such, where you have a choice between full-round attack for two attacks Vs a Cleave, Cleave means you will have to attack two opponents (at least). Full attack means that you can attack one opponent, and if you don't take him down, re-attack the same one if you want to. As such, pros and cons, as mentioned. I *do* love that it gives the fighter choices to make on the risk they want to take,the mthod of attack etc. Options are good!
Aiddar
How could you cleave all the same opponents as whirlwind?X0X
0P0
X0XUsing the above diagram where X is an enemy, P is the player and 0 is and empty square cleave would not work since none of the enemies are adjacent....
How are those opponents not considered adjacent? The section on Melee Attacks seems to suggest that diagonal is indeed adjacent:
With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.)
An argument made stronger by the threatened squares section:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally).
In other words.. I say, cleave away my friend!
Edit.. just realized you denoted X is the enemy and O is the empty square.. Yes, in that scenario it wouldn't work. (Future reference.. Most people use X as their empty squares :)
You are mistaken, cleave's wording is such that the targets need to be adjacent to one another. Literally either their side or corners of their square need to touch. In the example no sides or corners for the Xes are touching so they are not adjacent.
If cleave's wording were changed to within reach, it would make the feat much stronger and probably as much a no brainer as power attack is.
Yeah, I had my X's and O's switched around. I still take cleave on nearly all my martial chars because it is a great way to move and still get multiple attacks. It goes on all my striker builds.
I use it for initial levels and then to qualify for cleaving finish. Mmm love me some cleaving finish.
My undead-hating ranger in Carrion Crown has used Cleave to great effect - we took on 8 wights, and with a little help from Lead Blades, I killed 7 of them while the rest of the party dealt with the last, all because I could move and still hit two of them at a time.
As to Cleaving Finish - I haven't ever played it. Is the benefit of it over Cleave that the target of your additional attack doesn't have to be adjacent to your first targer?