Re-calibrating High-Level Play for an actual game.

[SoulGambit0]

I've played the 5e playtest recently. Coincidentally, I'm in a Pathfinder game that is hitting level 13+. The story is progressing and definitely of the proper scope, but the GM is having very real trouble creating challenges. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it takes longer and longer to make encounters and to contrive reasons a bunch of high level Orcs are in generic Orc Camp #5678 so we feel challenged.

Therefore, I'm flexing some of my homebrew / design background coupled with some stuff learned from 5e and elsewhere to tweak the PF system to better allow for higher level play.

I'd like your guy's assessments on what is being presented here and if any changes need to be made. These rules do invalidate some feats. Some I'll just let be invalidated (removing them from prerequisites), while others will have replacement effects on an as-needed basis.

I also recognize that every monster, in particular, will need to have its stats directly toned down which can be rather trivially done.

Link to the altered rules

[Sinatar]

Using those rules would basically transform Pathfinder into a different game. That's fine, and if everyone in your group likes it, then go for it. However, in my opinion it's unnecessary... especially at level 13. That is around the time that classes begin to offer some of their better abilities and characters begin to become more rounded.

Again, changing the game like this is unnecessary and would actually present more work for the GM to think about these new rules in conjunction with the rules already in place. And again if the GM and the group is fine with this, by all means go for it! But I would recommend not doing it. There are many ways already in place to tweak encounters for high level play. In your example, simply giving orcs levels in Barbarian (or other classes) is a great way to keep orcs a valid threat in a high level game. It's not that hard to do and it takes very little time to weak stat blocks this way.

Also, instead of explaining why there are suddenly high level orcs occupying a generic orc camp, you can say that those generic orcs have been getting stronger. This easily makes sense, especially if the "generic" orcs have been raiding and pillaging recently... PCs aren't the only ones in the world who level up.

[SoulGambit0]

I believe the differences at-table are the 2 Standard Actions vs Full attacks thing, different spell-casting times, Crits, and Advantage (which can be ignored if it's too much, honestly). Everything else just affects the numbers on the character sheet, nothing to think about in-game.

Where do you feel this breaks from the feel of Pathfinder enough to constitute a different game? The primary thing that I attempted to change is the scaling bonuses, I'm curious if some other change stands out more.

Converting any monster in 6 easy steps:

- Reduce a Monster's AC to 20+CR/5
- Reduce a Monster's To-Hit to +7+CR/5
- Reduce a Monster's Saves, not factoring in stat bonuses, to +1, +2, or +3 as appropriate (solos should have +3 all saves).
- Reduce a Monster's Save DCs to not include its HD/2.
- Assign a kind of "magic mojo" rating to each trait, noting how much a bonus you expect your PCs to have from buffs, feats, magic items, et cetera from +1 to +5.
- Assign up to +/- 3 to each thing to represent the monster being better or worse in some areas and supply variation or account for higher/lower-than-average damage, HP, special effects, et cetera.

You'll want AC to be 15~17 and To-Hit to be ~5 at lower levels, which admittedly isn't the focus of this design.

[Dasrak]

If your GM is desperately trying to make a camp of orcs a challenge for a party of 13th level characters, I think he should read this article. Your party isn't the Fellowship of the Ring anymore; your wizard can teleport from Rivendell to Mount Doom, drop off the ring, and be back before it's even hit the lava. These are characters who have powers that would completely overwhelm demigods in other fantasy settings.

A group of orcs who are powerful enough to challenge a party of 13th level characters won't be found in an off-beat camp in the woods. They will be the chosen champions of their race, leading entire armies on marches of conquest, perhaps being guided by greater powers still. A party of 13th level characters are people whose actions change the world on a daily basis; the encounters they face should be of similar scope.

It sounds to me like you're looking for a theme and story more appropriate for 5th level characters and are trying to reconcile that with the power wielded by a party of 13th level characters. Your problem isn't the rules, the problem is the characters you're playing with are too powerful for the story you want to experience. Reading your rules, it looks like you're trying to remove most forms of iterative progression while preserving the advancement of new abilities. There's a very easy way to do just that: it's called a level cap. Allow characters to continue to gain new feats and multi-class using gestalt-style rules after reaching the cap, but at that point all iterative progression cuts out (ie, "E6" style rules).

[darkwarriorkarg]

Was wondering that too. At 13th level, a single party member (even the rogue!) can eradicate a camp of orcs. In this system, that's how it should be.

To put it simply, at 13th level, you're a member of the freaking Justice League. You're Batman. they're mooks.

You can use E6 (as suggested) to go to other game systems/settings where orcs are not just cannonfodder.

They should be attack the reason the orcs are forming camps and marching towards the helpless towns, not the orcs. That's for the 5th level party of adventurers.

[The black raven]

Dasrak wrote:

If your GM is desperately trying to make a camp of orcs a challenge for a party of 13th level characters, I think he should read this article. Your party isn't the Fellowship of the Ring anymore; your wizard can teleport from Rivendell to Mount Doom, drop off the ring, and be back before it's even hit the lava. These are characters who have powers that would completely overwhelm demigods in other fantasy settings.

The link is a very interesting read (even halfway through). Einstein being a 5-th level Expert blows the mind.

[Can'tFindthePath]

darkwarriorkarg wrote:

You can use E6 (as suggested) to go to other game systems/settings where orcs are not just cannonfodder.

They should be attack the reason the orcs are forming camps and marching towards the helpless towns, not the orcs. That's for the 5th level party of adventurers.

.....OOOORRRRRRRRRR,

you can institute the changes you have in mind, and achieve a similar effect WITHOUT giving up 3/4 of the games' levels....

[LazarX]

At some point, it's time to retire the heroes and start perhaps thinking of stories for the next generation, perhaps the proteges of those heroes looking to make their own name?

High level play is unavoidably a different game. If you're not ready to play that game it's time for Generation 2.0 of new characters better suited for low level style play

[Goth Guru]

The bossess are noticing that the Orcs are not following their agenda.
It's time for Orogs(Half oger orcs), and full ogers. The best shock troops will be sent to the problem areas, meaning an evil version of the seven samuri will be waiting for them at the big Orc encampment.
You can have them face a true Ninja Troll, which will actually be a lower level ninja then a human with the same dice. When one of these pops out of the water beneath the bridge, it should still be impressive.