At what point does a Coup de Grace break Invisibility?


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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Serpent wrote:
if you target a "foe" with a spell, your invisibility ends. But if your fireball only affects your allies, or it only affects unattended objects, you're still invisible.

That's not true.

Serpent wrote:
Quoth the SRD: "(1) The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions.
That clarifies what an attack is, not a creature. Attacking your allies is still an attack.

Technically, RAW, allies are not enemies, and a spell is only considered an attack if it targets a foe, or includes a foe in its area (or if the spell requires an attack roll per "attacks any creature" in the previous statement). So casting fireball in an area which includes no foes does not break invisibility, regardless of the presence or absence of allies. Also, should an invisible character choose to heal a foe (to save his life after taking a heavy blow perhaps), invisibility ends, as you have targeted a foe.

Now if you had cast a spell which requires an attack roll, then it won't matter if you had targeted ally or foe, as you have attacked.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Serpent wrote:
if you target a "foe" with a spell, your invisibility ends. But if your fireball only affects your allies, or it only affects unattended objects, you're still invisible.

That's not true.

Serpent wrote:
Quoth the SRD: "(1) The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions.
That clarifies what an attack is, not a creature. Attacking your allies is still an attack.

No, you're wrong. "For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe." It means just what it says. If you cast a spell that does not target a foe or whose area or effect does not include a foe, you are not "attacking" for purposes of the invisibilty spell.

Attacks as defined in the combat rules include the following types of attack: Melee Attacks, Unarmed Attacks, Ranged Attacks, Natural Attacks and Multiple Attacks. Fireball does not fall under any of these categories, in other words, it's not an attack in the general sense of the term "attack". However, fireballing is an attack in the specific sense of determining whether it ends the invisibility spell. But only if its area includes a foe, as you can see in the above quote.

So, you're wrong.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Here's my tuppence ha'penny.

Invisible Spell quote "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature."

Coup de Grace is a full round action. It provokes AOO from threatening enemies.

Now... doing the literal thing

The spell ends if you make an attack - it doesn't care if you hit or miss, you actively attack is the key trigger.

So choosing to do a Coup de Grace is an attack action - okay it auto hits and crits but as far as invisibility is concerneed, your attack starts when you swing/fire/cast etc not the point of damage which is a whole round later.

Therefore, on your initiative, you start your full round action to coup de grace - the damage isn't applied until the end of the full round - i.e. everyone else gets to act. And you have become visibile for the duration of that attack and could get ganked by normal attacks from enemies observing what you are doing.

Now as far as AOO goes...

You aren't provoking by moving, so you must be provoking by distracting act...

AOO write up also states "An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."

Starting the coup de grace provokes from the coup de grace write up, you become visible the instant you start your attack from the spell write up (becoming visible takes no time per se), so I would rule that yes, as it's a full round action, you are subject to not only attacks of opportunity but also getting mobbed by the enemy if they so desire for the full round before the damage is then resolved.

You could think of it as casting a full round spell - that mage will get ganked if he tries to do so :)

Don't forget though, it's your table, you rule how you prefer when you are running your game.

Sczarni

The argument still has the effect occurring before the cause. The effect is invisibility dropped, the cause of the effect is the coup de grace. The invisibility spell doesn't drop before an attack. It doesn't drop before a spell is cast. Why would it drop before a coup de grace? The idea of it being a full-round action just means it takes 6 seconds to complete and you're not allowed to spend a move action to get to a helpless defender and a standard action to finish him off.

If we take the logic of the other side of the argument and apply it to other scenarios, then the act of drawing a bow should drop invisibility since it's the beginning of an attack. Or a mage beginning his somatic components for a spell should drop invisibility because it's the beginning of an attack, and both acts should provoke.

What about if an invisible mage casts maximized delayed blast fireball? No attack roll is made and no reflex saves or damage rolls are made until several rounds later. By all definitions, no criteria has been met for invisibility to fail. A full round has been spent casting and up to another five rounds can pass before there is a result, but by your logic the mage will be visible before he finishes casting a spell.

What about in Carrion Crown with the cursed spellbook? DC14 will save or your abort your casting at the last moment. Does invisibility drop then as well even though there was never an attack roll, damage roll, or even a spell expended because you started an attack?

I understand the slight confusion over coup de grace, but there has to be consistency across the board. If the rule applies to one attack it must apply to all of them and it doesn't even begin to make sense when applied in other scenarios. That alone should throw up red flags.

Sczarni

Also..

Quote:
Therefore, on your initiative, you start your full round action to coup de grace - the damage isn't applied until the end of the full round - i.e. everyone else gets to act.

This isn't true. Everyone else does not get to act. The coup de grace action begins and ends on your turn. The idea of it being a full-round action only means you can't do anything else during your turn. The action doesn't extend into other players' and enemies' turns during the round.

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