Zombies and Skeletons oh my!

[KainPen]

ok One of my players decided to animate a few undead. I went to go apply the template from I was little confused on some things
Skeleton, Hill Giant for Example does the natural Armor Class bonus become +2 or is it increased from +9 to +11

would the hill giant the be able to slam 2 times and claw 2 times since it gains claw attacks? but one of those at -5 or can it just do one or the other?

"Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks." Does this mean the Giant would keep rock throwing ability but lose rock catching? or does it lose both of these. what are some examples of extraordinary special qualities that they keep.

This same thing is used with Zombies so does this mean a Wyvern Zombie would keep poison and rake or lose it as.

Also Does said Wyvern Zombie instantly gain 2 hit dice as the template states? or Can the creator keep them 2 hit dice lower?

[Grick]

KainPen wrote:

Skeleton, Hill Giant for Example does the natural Armor Class bonus become +2 or is it increased from +9 to +11

Skeleton: Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes as follows:

Skeleton Size Natural Armor Bonus
Medium or Large +2

+2, not 2. So the Hill Giant ends up with a total natural armor bonus of 11.

KainPen wrote:

would the hill giant the be able to slam 2 times and claw 2 times since it gains claw attacks? but one of those at -5 or can it just do one or the other?

Most people assume that you can only attack with one natural attack per limb. I think this is based on the rule under Natural Attacks that "a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb" when combining manufactured weapons with natural attacks. You can't use the claws that are on the same hand you're using a sword, for example.

However, I can't find anything that says it doesn't work with multiple natural attacks. So if you've got 2 slams (due to 2 arms) and 2 claws (due to 2 hands) I think you can attack with all four of them. The same way something can attack with a gore and bite, despite having only one head.

KainPen wrote:

Does this mean the Giant would keep rock throwing ability but lose rock catching? or does it lose both of these. what are some examples of extraordinary special qualities that they keep.

I think you lose Catching, and keep Throwing.

KainPen wrote:

This same thing is used with Zombies so does this mean a Wyvern Zombie would keep poison and rake or lose it as.

I think it keeps them. The DC will change since it's using Cha instead of Con, and it's Cha becomes 10.

KainPen wrote:

Also Does said Wyvern Zombie instantly gain 2 hit dice as the template states?

I don't see why it wouldn't.

[KainPen]

Thanks anyone else have an on this? I wish they would have made large zombie or skeleton so we can see how it is applying. in these kind of instants. They always use medium creatures based off a humanoid for undead.

I was thinking a Grick posted but I wanted to make sure before next weeks game. I was wondering so if you animate said Wyvern Zombie and it gain the 2 hit dice, and place the creature above caster Hit dice ability to animated did mean he could not animate that creature. Or does it mean he can still animate because it original hit dice was with in limit, but after being created into zombie it gain to hit dice bonus. I am sure the bonus hit dice would count against total hit dice allowed to be control but not sure about the actual creation.

[KainPen]

Bump, I was wondering if anyone can give me any example of this or conformation. of The above. "It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks."

[Bigtuna]

1 limb = 1 attack IMHO. The zombie would have the option of slamming or clawing but not both in the same round. You are not making a monk zombie that hits with any part of it¨s body...

[KainPen]

Looking for example of this part "It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks." it listed and zombie. is grab considering this or pounce, ect.? There no example in any of the books that I can see. If you search special qualities in the book, scent and vision are the only things that come up. Those do not apply to attacks. The wording is bad with out any example. I saw http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-gian t-storm

and it does not have rock throwing in it so I am guessing they lose that. But that is a type of attack???

then we have
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-fast /zombie-fast-wolf

This suggest that poison would be kept because trip is. so looking for some sort of certification

those examples also suggest natural armor changed to what ever the zombie or skeletons should be. it is not increased by number. other wise the storm giant would have natural ac +18

[Shinigaze]

Grick wrote:

KainPen wrote:

Skeleton, Hill Giant for Example does the natural Armor Class bonus become +2 or is it increased from +9 to +11

Skeleton: Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes as follows:

Skeleton Size Natural Armor Bonus
Medium or Large +2

+2, not 2. So the Hill Giant ends up with a total natural armor bonus of 11.

Judging from the bestiary entries for certain monsters (Advanced Skeleton Megaraptor) it is the other way around. A megaraptor normally has a natural aromor of +6, when turned into a skeleton it's natural armor bonus becomes a +2 and it gains another +2 from the advanced template, thus making it's NA bonus a +4 as it is shown in the statistics for the creature.

[Grick]

Shinigaze wrote:

Judging from the bestiary entries for certain monsters (Advanced Skeleton Megaraptor) it is the other way around. A megaraptor normally has a natural aromor of +6, when turned into a skeleton it's natural armor bonus becomes a +2 and it gains another +2 from the advanced template, thus making it's NA bonus a +4 as it is shown in the statistics for the creature.

I don't see Advanced Skeleton Megaraptor on the PRD. Which bestiary is it from?

The only "Megaraptor" reference I can find is here: A Deinonychus with the giant and advanced simple templates.

Deinonychus has a Natural Armor score of 3
Giant template: increase natural armor by +3
Advanced template: increase natural armor by +2

So a Megaraptor should have a total natural armor of +8.

Applying the skeleton template should bump that up to +10.

[Shinigaze]

Grick wrote:

I don't see Advanced Skeleton Megaraptor on the PRD. Which bestiary is it from?

The only "Megaraptor" reference I can find is here: A Deinonychus with the giant and advanced simple templates.

Deinonychus has a Natural Armor score of 3
Giant template: increase natural armor by +3
Advanced template: increase natural armor by +2

So a Megaraptor should have a total natural armor of +8.

Applying the skeleton template should bump that up to +10.

I found it on the SRD. It is at

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/sk eleton-advanced-megaraptor

[Grick]

Shinigaze wrote:

I found it on the SRD. It is at

(linked)

That's a conversion someone made from a d20 book.

[Shinigaze]

Grick wrote:

Shinigaze wrote:

I found it on the SRD. It is at

(linked)

That's a conversion someone made from a d20 book.

Oh ok then, the SRD usually differentiates between Paizo and 3rd party content and as it was listed as official Paizo content I just assumed it was in a bestiary somewhere.

[Defraeter]

Hill Giant: It seems that the slam attack of the giant are made with its arms. So in the line "Melee greatclub +14/+9 (2d8+10) or 2 slams +13 (1d8+7)", it is noted greatclub OR 2 slams, NOT greatclub and 2 slams.
So for melee, a skeleton (or zombie) Hill giant may do 2 slams OR 2 claws (with dmg template skeleton).
Only one natural attack by limb.

A skeleton hasn't the special attacks nor defensive abilities of the base creature.

So the skeleton hill giant lose the Special Attacks rock throwing (120 ft.) and lose Defensive Abilities rock catching too.
It may NO MORE throw or catch a rock, except with the rule of improvised weapon.

Wyvern:
the skeleton (or zombie) wyvern lose the Special Attack rake (2 talons +10, 1d6+4) and the Immune sleep, paralysis of the "base wyvern".

Special abilities: skeleton or zombie retains extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.
- ability with: (Ex)
- apply on an attack

The Poison (Ex) is an (Ex) ability, so extraordinary, and apply to an attack: the skeleton/zombie wyvern will keep it (with Cha for DC).

[KainPen]

Yeah this is why I trying to get clarification on it animate dead rules.
because no one seems to know exactly.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-gian t-storm

The natural ac of the zombie Storm is normally +12 or +14 but this ones that turn into a zombie only has +4 which matches the correct bonus for zombie based on size. same with wolf I mention before.

While your mega raptor does not fit the chart for skeleton. According to the chart is should only be a 2

Should I FAQ this see if I can get a official response?

I did notice both sources are from different years the raptor is from 2008 maybe that is 3.5 content? while the wolf and storm giant are from adventure path from 2011. Lol i still have no clue what extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks is???? Thanks for the example you did give.

[Defraeter]

KainPen wrote:

Yeah this is why I trying to get clarification on it animate dead rules.

because no one seems to know exactly.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-gian t-storm

The natural ac of the zombie Storm is normally +12 or +14 but this ones that turn into a zombie only has +4 which matches the correct bonus for zombie based on size. same with wolf I mention before.

While your mega raptor does not fit the chart for skeleton. According to the chart is should only be a 2

Should I FAQ this see if I can get a official response?

I did notice both sources are from different years the raptor is from 2008 maybe that is 3.5 content? while the wolf and storm giant are from adventure path from 2011. Lol i still have no clue what extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks is???? Thanks for the example you did give.

Oh yes, i didn't understood what you mean. The natural armor tables of the template replaces those of the basic monster. Of course.

PRD Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC.
That is written:
- skeleton: Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes as follows:
- zombie: Armor Class: Natural armor is based on the zombie's size:
...doesn't change anything: the natural armor of skeleton/zombie is based on size and you must apply for each their table. It replaces their old "natural armor bonus".

So a skeleton hill giant will have +2 natural armor bonus and as zombie will have +3.

[Defraeter]

KainPen wrote:

i still have no clue what extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks is???? Thanks for the example you did give.

I notice the zombie cloud Giant doesn't keep the extraordinary ability of the base Cloud giant (Oversized Weapon (Ex)). May be because that (Ex) ability doesn't improve directly an attack.

Not sure at all now, that the skeleton/zombie wyvern keeps its poison (Ex)...

I am afraid there are no examples...