***Minor Spoiler Warning - If you are playing in a Skull and Shackles AP group, you might wish to avoid this thread unless you have completed Island of Empty Eyes***
Below are the complete stats for a monster appearing in the Skull and Shackles Adventure Path:
XP 9,600
Female advanced giant trapper (Pathfinder Campaign Setting:
Misfit Monsters Redeemed 51, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary
294–295)
N Gargantuan aberration
Init +6; Senses blindsense 10 ft., darkvision 60 ft., scent;
Perception +27
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 8, flat-footed 23 (+2 Dex, +17 natural, –4 size)
hp 149 (13d8+91)
Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +13
DR 10/piercing or slashing; Resist cold 10, fire 10
Weaknesses light sensitivity
OFFENSE
Speed 10 ft., climb 5 ft.
Melee slam +19 (3d8+21 plus grab)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (3d8+21), smother
TACTICS
During Combat The Great Mother lies in wait until someone
ventures into reach, then she grabs and smothers and
constricts her victim while fending off any would-be
rescuers with her slam attack.
Morale If reduced to 50 hit points or fewer, the Great Mother
releases any remaining victims and flees north, squeezing
past the rubble to reach the relative safety of area G19
before slipping back into the Darklands.
STATISTICS
Str 38, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 18, Wis 21, Cha 17
Base Atk +9; CMB +27 (+31 grapple); CMD 39 (can’t be tripped)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude,
Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus
(Perception), Skill Focus (Stealth)
Skills Climb +38, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +20, Knowledge
(local) +17, Perception +27, Sense Motive +18, Sleight of
Hand +15, Stealth +16 (+24 in rocky areas), Survival +21;
Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth (+12 in rocky areas)
Languages Aklo, Common, Cyclops, Giant, Undercommon
SQ amorphous
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Amorphous (Ex) Trappers are immune to precision damage
(like sneak attacks) and critical hits, and can move through an
area as small as one-quarter their space without squeezing or
one-eighth their space when squeezing.
Smother (Ex) When a trapper grapples a target, it forms an
airtight seal around its prey. A grappled target cannot speak
or cast spells with verbal components, and must hold its
breath (see Suffocation, Core Rulebook 445).
The part I am concerned with is the presented tactics:
"During Combat The Great Mother lies in wait until someone
ventures into reach, then she grabs and smothers and
constricts her victim while fending off any would-be
rescuers with her slam attack."
I attempted to do just that, except when I went to make another attack on her turn after maintaining the grapple she had on a party member, one of my players pointed out that unless the monster has Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple, it would be a standard action to maintain the grapple she has already initiated and she could not make another attack. We looked it up, and I can find nothing that would allow this creature to follow the tactics presented in her stat block.
Am I missing something here, or did the designers of the adventure path make a big mistake? Fortunately we are all pretty up on the rules, but even so I missed it because I was simply following the tactics presented. A group that was less familiar with the rules might not have caught this error, and considering the monster killed one party member with no trouble, if it could make attacks against other party members at the same time, it very well could cause a TPK for an equal level party.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
.....
....
...
..
.
What Malach the Merciless is getting at is that you can absolutely do exactly what the tactics describe, but you'd take a -20 to your CMB checks while doing so. Not a cripplingly bad option when your CMB modifier after subtracting the penalty is still a two-digit figure, unmodified. I wouldn't recommend taking that penalty while trying to grapple a raging half-orc barbarian... but a gnomish wizard? Absolutely.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
What Malach the Merciless is getting at is that you can absolutely do exactly what the tactics describe, but you'd take a -20 to your CMB checks while doing so. Not a cripplingly bad option when your CMB modifier after subtracting the penalty is still a two-digit figure, unmodified. I wouldn't recommend taking that penalty while trying to grapple a raging half-orc barbarian... but a gnomish wizard? Absolutely.
I think the problem comes in under the main Grapple rules.
Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Since the creature needs to take a standard action to even just hold the grappled target, let alone constrict it, there is no way for it with its current feats to also perform slams on its turn. It could slam up to 3 people moving in its threatened area as AoOs (taking the -20 to its CMB), which might be what the tactics block is referring to.
Also, wow, I forgot about the +5 bonus made against the same target in subsequent rounds.
.....
....
...
..
.What Malach the Merciless is getting at is that you can absolutely do exactly what the tactics describe, but you'd take a -20 to your CMB checks while doing so. Not a cripplingly bad option when your CMB modifier after subtracting the penalty is still a two-digit figure, unmodified. I wouldn't recommend taking that penalty while trying to grapple a raging half-orc barbarian... but a gnomish wizard? Absolutely.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
Incorrect. As the above poster mentioned, it must spend a standard action to hold the grapple. It may take a -20 penalty in order to not gain the grappled condition itself, allowing it to make AOO's and move and whatnot, but it may not hold the grapple without taking a standard action unless it has Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple, allowing to to maintain the hold as a move action instead of a standard action.
The Grab ability only allows it to initiate a grapple as a free action after making an attack, and on subsequent rounds it must make the grapple check as normal, dealing standard damage and maintaining the grapple, then dealing constrict damage. In other words, it gets its damage twice in a round against a grappled target, but it may not attack anyone else unless it has additional feats and takes Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple.
Unless I'm missing something of course...
I would assume the "fending off any would-be rescuers" part refer to making AoOs, as WampaX suggests. With a 15 ft reach, most would-be rescuers would provoke.
|
When you have a monster with multiple attacks and the grab special ability you really should drop each held victim every round as a free action at the beginning of your turn, then use the full attack action to attack them again and reinitiate the grapples via grab, preferrably while not being grappled yourself.
--Figure Four Leg Vrock
When you have a monster with multiple attacks and the grab special ability you really should drop each held victim every round as a free action at the beginning of your turn, then use the full attack action to attack them again and reinitiate the grapples via grab, preferrably while not being grappled yourself.
--Figure Four Leg Vrock
Oh that's perfectly viable if the monster has multiple attacks, but in this case she does not. She has a single melee slam with grab. She could of course grapple and drop every round but there is almost no reason to do so, and because her Smother ability completely envelops the target, making it impossible to deliver touch spells onto them or generate line of effect to them with Channel or ranged healing abilities, it's actually MORE hazardous in this case for her to just maintain the grapple every round and NOT take the -20.
In response to (and correction of) myself: AoOs can't be the reason the tactics are written that way, since grappled creatures can't make AoOs.
In response to (and correction of) myself: AoOs can't be the reason the tactics are written that way, since grappled creatures can't make AoOs.
If you take the -20 to CMB, you don't have the Grappled condition, so you can make AoOs.
I think maybe the creator of the creature wasn't 100% sure of the grapple/grab mechanics and assumed that Grab = free Grapple check always?
Wouldn't be the first time something was in an AP that isn't rules legal. (Recently playing through Age of Worms and it says an NPC will gladly cast Polymorph Any Object on a magic item of their choice to customize it just for them. That spell doesn't work on Magic Items. Didn't in 3.5 either).
allowing it to make AOO's and move and whatnot
Moving your opponent is part of the standard action. So the tactic of snatching opponents off the ground by flying enemies isn't actually very effective.
The dragon takes -20 to their CMB and grapples you. But it can only move YOU as part of the standard action to maintain a grapple.
allowing it to make AOO's and move and whatnotMoving your opponent is part of the standard action. So the tactic of snatching opponents off the ground by flying enemies isn't actually very effective.
The dragon takes -20 to their CMB and grapples you. But it can only move YOU as part of the standard action to maintain a grapple.
Once again, the -20 removes the grappled condition from the grappler, allowing the grappler to move, make attacks of opportunity, and do all manner of other things that one can do with a move-equivalent action. The dragon grapples you, takes a -20, flies 200 feet in the air and drops you for 20d6 damage, and it's 100% legal. The dragon may NOT make another attack against another creature, however, because he must take a standard action to maintain the grapple.
yup, the -20 options works just fine to enable taking AoO's AND moving...
i would say that it makes sense to NOT use it when initiating (since it's such a steep penalty),
but consider using it on the maintains, which will be benefitting from the +5 bonus to maintain a grapple on subsequent rounds... on squishies and with this monster's CMB, that seems pretty viable.
if they are taking the -20 option for the maintain, they can freely move to a new position which would 'draw' AoOs from oncomers.
since a succesful Grapple check automatically moves the target to an adjacent square,
they don't even need to use the 'Move' option for Maintain, but can do extra Damage/Pin instead.
alternately, they can drop the grapple, move, and re-initiate, albeit the lose the +5 bonus to Maintain.
given the relevant rule (-20 option) has already been mentioned and quoted, I don't understand why anybody still thinks the writer here isn't aware of the Grapple rules, or that the monster tactics as statement aren't rules legal... the fact that the monster has combat reflexes is a big hint that AoO's are it's schtick. and of course, all of those AoOs can also grab each oncoming attacker, even if only one can be officially 'maintained' per round (given the monster's feats).
Once again, the -20 removes the grappled condition from the grappler, allowing the grappler to move, make attacks of opportunity, and do all manner of other things that one can do with a move-equivalent action. The dragon grapples you, takes a -20, flies 200 feet in the air and drops you for 20d6 damage, and it's 100% legal. The dragon may NOT make another attack against another creature, however, because he must take a standard action to maintain the grapple.Moving your opponent is part of the standard action. So the tactic of snatching opponents off the ground by flying enemies isn't actually very effective.
The dragon takes -20 to their CMB and grapples you. But it can only move YOU as part of the standard action to maintain a grapple.
To be precise, although the Dragon themself may be free to Move with their move action after initiating a Grapple, nothing about Grapple says the target is 'held' adjacent to them... Just that a successful Grapple check moves the target adjacent to them (i.e. when the Grapple check is made). But a Dragon COULD move FIRST (still able to Reach the target) and the target would automatically be moved to a square adjacent to the Dragon, even if that means they are in mid-air. Once Grappled, subsequent actions to Maintain could be used to Move the target (up to half the move speed of dragon), OR the dragon could choose to take it's own movement first (if it's not itself Grappled, that's fine) and then Maintain for Damage or Pin - the target is automatically moved to an adjacent square of their choice as is standard for any succesful Grapple check against a non-adjacent target. The latter option is limited by the dragon's reach though, so you will be effectively limited to moving your Reach distance, vs. half of your move speed if you use the Move option of Maintain.
To be precise, although the Dragon themself may be free to Move with their move action after initiating a Grapple, nothing about Grapple says the target is 'held' adjacent to them... Just that a successful Grapple check moves the target adjacent to them (i.e. when the Grapple check is made). But a Dragon COULD move FIRST (still able to Reach the target) and the target would automatically be moved to a square adjacent to the Dragon, even if that means they are in mid-air. Once Grappled, subsequent actions to Maintain could be used to Move the target (up to half the move speed of dragon), OR the dragon could choose to take it's own movement first (if it's not itself Grappled, that's fine) and then Maintain for Damage or Pin - the target is automatically moved to an adjacent square of their choice as is standard for any succesful Grapple check against a non-adjacent target. The latter option is limited by the dragon's reach though, so you will be effectively limited to moving your Reach distance, vs. half of your move speed if you use the Move option of Maintain.Once again, the -20 removes the grappled condition from the grappler, allowing the grappler to move, make attacks of opportunity, and do all manner of other things that one can do with a move-equivalent action. The dragon grapples you, takes a -20, flies 200 feet in the air and drops you for 20d6 damage, and it's 100% legal. The dragon may NOT make another attack against another creature, however, because he must take a standard action to maintain the grapple.Moving your opponent is part of the standard action. So the tactic of snatching opponents off the ground by flying enemies isn't actually very effective.
The dragon takes -20 to their CMB and grapples you. But it can only move YOU as part of the standard action to maintain a grapple.
That is an interesting distinction and one that I will need to remember for future sessions. Thanks for pointing that out.
definitely...
for the above Dragon scenario, there's also the option to do the Grapple, move away (if you use the -20 option) to where the target can't even reach to attack you (but you still threaten them), and on subsequent rounds use the Move option of Maintain to first automatically move the target adjacent, and then move/carry the target along with you as per the Move option... and if -20 was used, they can again move away (within reach, per my below house-rule). it's not 100% clear, but based on the grapple rules it seems that the grapple target can ALWAYS roll a check to escape the grapple regardless if they threaten their grappler. technically, they could even reverse it even though they don't threaten, but that would run into my below house-rule...
It's not in the rules explicitly, but I require that the 'controller' of a grapple keep the target within their OWN reach (for grapple attacks), or else the grapple is immediately dissolved... Only seems to make sense, even if the RAW doesn't say anything about that. It might suck as a target to not be able to attack back, but it seems reasonable within the scope of the rules.
(there's a feat to ready an attack vs. an attacker with a reach advantage, strike back or something... i am prone to allowing anybody to do that, i.e. without buying that feat, but it still requires a readied action)