How important is Confusion?


Advice

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I know it's an amazing spell, I know it rocks socks. But how important is a caster like a sorc, with limited spells known, to have it? Is it a 'must have' or just really good?

Silver Crusade

It's hard to split that hair!

When you throw it into an enemy formation and sit back to watch them kill each other it feels like the best spell in the world.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

yeah, i'm torn between that and ball lightning (with dazing spell of course) it gives me something to do with my move actions, and it works on everything, not just stuff vulnerable to mind effects

Silver Crusade

There doesn't seem to be a conflict.

Dazing Spell increases the spell level by three, so a Dazing Ball Lighning takes a seventh level spell slot. Even with a way to reduce that you'd have more than one fourth level spell known, surely!

What level are you?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

hehehe. total, i'm gonna have stoneskin, dimension door, boneshatter and one other, either ball lightning or confusion.


I would take both ball lightning and confusion and drop one of the other spells. Maybe stoneskin; it's a great spell in the right situation, but between the material cost and the fact that it's only a 10 minute/level (instead of an all day spell), it seems like it would be useful less often to you then the others.

Confusion is pretty awesome fairly often. It's not always useful, but it's a great option to have. I would find room for it.


How about getting Communal Stoneskin and getting others to split the cost with you? :)

Frees up a 4th level slot. IMO, 4th level has a lot of tougher choices to make than 5th. You didn't even mention Enervation or Greater Invis!

I would also drop Dim Door, though. For transport it's sort of nice, but it is completely worthless as a grapple escape in PF, the concentration DC is stupidly ridiculously high.

Confusion is very nice, but has a very limited selection of enemies you can use it on as a mind-affecting spell. Definitely, dazing ball lightning is better if you can afford / reduce the level adjustment on that.
Either works great w/ Persistent Spell.

Silver Crusade

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

How about getting Communal Stoneskin and getting others to split the cost with you? :)

Frees up a 4th level slot. IMO, 4th level has a lot of tougher choices to make than 5th. You didn't even mention Enervation or Greater Invis!

I would also drop Dim Door, though. For transport it's sort of nice, but it is completely worthless as a grapple escape in PF, the concentration DC is stupidly ridiculously high.

Confusion is very nice, but has a very limited selection of enemies you can use it on as a mind-affecting spell. Definitely, dazing ball lightning is better if you can afford / reduce the level adjustment on that.
Either works great w/ Persistent Spell.

Note that d.door is still good, just that it will probably be useful infrequently enough that you can just carry a few scrolls. Same with stoneskin. I second the suggestion of evervation, it's just that good.


I disagree with Dimensional Door, it's incredibly useful. Either as a escape (sure, not while grappled, but works when surrounded), and, specially, as battlefield control and damage dealing. Often a dimensional door touching two teammates and puting them close enough from the enemy that they can do a 5' step and full round action is the most damaging stuff you can do. Way beyond Ball Lightning.

My 16th level fighter can do ~50 damage with one single non-crit attack. But he can do ~250 dmg in a full round, not counting crits (and I crit 15+). Other melee classes, such as rogues, magus, wildshaped druids or paladins can do similar numbers. That means if the situation is right (ie: you and your mates go before the BBEG in initiative, or both you and your mates go after him), you can use the delay option, touch two fellow members, and make them do +100 to +150 extra damage, per party member touched.

Last week we were playing the last book of Kingmaker, and a properly cast dimensional door to two melee characters meant the CR 20 Lesser Jaberwock did not even act.


I've never been a big fan of Confusion. Not because I think it's a bad spell, it's just a spell that doesn't synergize very well with any fighter-type PCs in the party.


hogarth wrote:
I've never been a big fan of Confusion. Not because I think it's a bad spell, it's just a spell that doesn't synergize very well with any fighter-type PCs in the party.

Eh, not really true. The fighters just has to engage whatever enemies made their saving throw and are not confused, and leave the confused ones alone (and stay away from them if possible). Anything that basically removes half of the enemies you're fighting from combat synergies great with fighters. And if all the enemies fail their saving throw, then you just stay the heck back and laugh at them, but that doesn't usually happen; there will usually be at least 1 or 2, and they're likely to try to get away from their confused buddies if they're smart, so the fighter can engage them there.


+1 on dimension door...
if you have a familiar to be 'you' for the spell effect/ touch the targets, it's even better.
i guess eventually you may just want to get a wand of it (or scrolls), since the DC doesn't really matter,
but certainly right when that's your top spell level or 2, it makes sense to have it,
even if you re-train that spell known to something else 2 spell levels later or so...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

well, i dont have enervation mostly because we're in age of worms, and a lot of what we're fighting is undead. i took boneshatter, because it's ray of exhaustion with damage, so it works on undead and living targets. here, this is my spell list. kobold bloodline sorc, acting as the party's rogue, and NOT the party's primary arcanist (we have a wizard who can cast haste and other stuff) largely a debuff and SoL caster. this has turned into "is confusion good" to "is it good for my character". and that depends entirely on what else i have. i have empower spell, silent and quicken (or i will, we're level 9)< and i have craft rod, so i can get any other metamagic. i dont have enervation because of the plethora of undead, mostly. prying eyes is for scouting purposes, as that's my job too. and as for invisibility, i'm getting a ring of invisibility. thoughts?

Spells:

1: 0- Message, Acid Splash, Read magic, Detect Magic
1- Grease, Hydraulic Push

2: 0- Mage Hand

3: 1- Silent Image
2- Aid (bloodline)

4: 0- Prestidigitation
2- Pilfering Hand

5: 1- Vanish
2- Glitterdust
3- Remove Disease (bloodline)

6: 0- Open/Close
3- Spiked Pit

7: 1- Magic Missile
2- Mirror Image
3- Explosive Runes (bloodline), Dispel Magic

8: 0- Mending
4- Boneshatter

9: 2- Resist Energy
3- Slow
4- Dragon's Breath (bloodline), Dimension Door

10: 0- Light
5- Overland Flight

11: 2- Burning Arc or command undead
3- Fireball
4- Stoneskin
5- Rock to Mud (bloodline), Prying Eyes

12: 6- summon monster VI

13: 4- Confusion or Ball Lightning
5- Wall of Stone
6- Guards and Wards (bloodline), Contingency

14: 7- Project Image

15: 5- Icy Prison
6- Greater Dispel Magic
7- Delayed Blast Fireball (bloodline), Waves of Exhaustion

16: 8- Wall of Lava

17: 7- Grasping Hand
8- Form of the Dragon III (bloodline), Moment of Prescience

18: 9- Time Stop

19: 8- Maze
9- Imprisonment (bloodline), Summon Monster IX

20: 9- Mage's Disjunction


gustavo iglesias wrote:
I disagree with Dimensional Door, it's incredibly useful. Either as a escape (sure, not while grappled, but works when surrounded), and, specially, as battlefield control and damage dealing.

dimension door can be used while grappled - it's even more useful than you thought.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

what he's saying is that anything halfway competent at grappling will make the concentration DC so high you cant realistically cast it.


snex wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
I disagree with Dimensional Door, it's incredibly useful. Either as a escape (sure, not while grappled, but works when surrounded), and, specially, as battlefield control and damage dealing.
dimension door can be used while grappled - it's even more useful than you thought.

Sure. If you are being grappled by a cat or something like that. Anything in the APL range of a caster with Dimensional door, and grapple, is way beyond hope of your concentration check.

For example, at CR 7, (the lowest level you can use Dimensional Door), your grappling monsters in the Bestiary are Remorhaz, with CMD 28, and Dire Bear, with CMD 31. Your concentration DC is 10+CMD, so it's DC 38 for the lowest of those monsters, and you roll 1d20+CL+INT+ maybe Combat Casting. So you are rolling 1d20+17, if you got a 20 in your stat and have a headband at 7th level, and burn a feat on it. Even then, you need to roll a 20 in your d20.

Silver Crusade

Xavier319 wrote:
what he's saying is that anything halfway competent at grappling will make the concentration DC so high you cant realistically cast it.

Dimension door is ripe with possibilities for contingency, though you need to be level 12 to add a 4th level spell to contingency (not a problem as you are a sorcerer, right?). I like contingency alot, for a 1500gp investment (at level 11 at earliest, that's a joke) you can easily save your life. I think I'll make a thread about contingency now.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

i agree completely, there are a lot of options for dimension door. all of which useful, especially for it's level.

Silver Crusade

Xavier319 wrote:
i agree, but, let's get back on topic about confusion in relation to the spell list posted.

It's right up your alley, get it.


Sorcerers have to be a lot pickier about what spells they take. Of the spells you listed...I would drop stoneskin and take confusion. While it is limited as a mind-effecting spell, when it can be used it is absoluetly golden.

In our home game we (10th lvl party) came up on a group of 8 hill giants in a relatively small room for that large a group. Our Sorc dropped 2 confusions and then we sat back and laughed as the played thunderdome. Was it boring to watch the GM kill himself...yes. Our GM made up for it by doing an absolutely awesome job roleplaying a bunch of confused hill giants. At one point we had a choir of giants all babling variations of "I'm a Giant, I'm a Giant, Your a Giants too". 15 minutes of laughing later, we shot the last hill giant and went on our way. Very effective use of resources.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

sounds good. was thinking of taking confusion and enervation. true i cant use it on undead, but on not-undead, it's a golden debuff. and a great setup as a quickened effect before another debuff.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

that and considering greater invis, but that's a story for another time. thanks for the advice peeps.

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