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In putting together a character build, I find myself a little confused. The idea is that the character uses a shield as their primary weapon to deliver shield bash attacks, so everything about the build works towards that idea. Clarification on any of the points I've brought up would be appreciated, but please only cite RAW or RAI posts by developers if you want to disprove any of the points here.
Since I can't find the answer in Pathfinder rules, I'm going off of the 3.5 rules quoted in this thread.
The description of the magical bashing property for shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields. Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing?
You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you do, the damage dealt by the shield bash increases from normal by 3 steps (2 for the bashing property and 1 for the shield spikes) , and the weapon becomes a martial piercing weapon. The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing, if made for a Medium character, would deal 1d8 points of piercing damage from the bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of damage, but the spikes improve that to 1d4 and the bashing enhancement increases that to 1d8.)
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course, that means that any attack you make with your other hand becomes a secondary weapon.
Based on this post by Jason Bulmahn, Shield Master was supposed to have been errata'd to add the shield's base shield bonus as an enhancement bonus, not add the defensive enhancement bonus. He went on to clarify that Shield Focus does not apply here either.
HOWEVER, the errata that Jason said would come still isn't in the rules (on the official PRD or on d20pfsrd). So based on the RAW, I can add my defensive enhancement bonus as an offensive enhancement bonus by taking Shield Master.
A shield bash is normally 1/2 strength due to being offhand, but if it is mainhand it gets full strength. So being that a Heavy Shield is not a light weapon, I can two-hand it for 1.5 strength.
Also, as far as enchants go, I can enchant the shield as a weapon using enhancement bonus equivalent enchants (Bane, Flaming, etc.), and then add the defensive enhancement bonus on top of that using Shield Master. Being that the current RAW of Shield Master is no different than casting Magic Weapon on the shield, this will work.
So at level 12, with 108,000gp of wealth and not spending more than 50% on one item, you can have:
Defensive Enchants (+4 equiv., 16k): +2 Bashing (+1 bonus) & Ramming (+1 bonus) Heavy Spiked Steel Shield
Offensive Enchants (+3 equiv. 32k): +1 Impact
The shield spike increases the effective size category by 1, Bashing increases it by 2, Impact increases it by another 1. Bashing and Impact are untyped increases that don't say that they do not stack, so they will stack.
End result? On an attack, the shield does 2d8+(1.5*StrengthMod)+2 piercing damage. On a charge, you get a free Bull Rush as a Swift action. And that's not even taking into account Fighter training and feats...I'd probably even remove the Ramming enchant for an extra +1 AC, +1 attack, and +1 damage.
Sorry, the question was whether or not this was all correct and would work.
The follow-up question was whether or not the devs actually plan to errata this ability as intended 3 years ago.
So a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would deal 2d6 points of damage on a 'shield bash', being treated as if it were three size categories higher. This is how it was in 3.5 at least, it doesn't look like the Pathfinder rules changed any wording in that regard.Not if you're going to play the semantics game/rules as precisely written game. Because a shield spike and a shield bash are DIFFERENT weapons (they've got different entries on the weapon table on page 142 to prove it). The bashing quality says noting about improving a shield spike attack. It's ONLY about improving a shield bash attack.
Main-handing is no problem. 1.5xStr no problem.
Many people consider adding weapon enchantments and armor enchantments on a shield to be using the Adding New Abilities rules, thus costing 50% more.
I don't see an Impact enchantment in the PRD or d20pfsrd.
Impact is in Ultimate Equipment, and I accidentally copied it out as increasing the size by 2 steps, it is in fact 1 step. So 2d8 instead of 3d6 damage.
Impact PRICE +2 bonus
AURA moderate transmutation CL 9th WEIGHT —
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons that are
not light weapons. An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic
jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one
size category larger. In addition, any bull rush combat maneuver
the wielder attempts while wielding the weapon gains a bonus
equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus; this includes all bull
rush attempts, not only those in which a weapon is used, such
as Bull Rush Strike, Shield Slam, or Unseat.
Construction Requirements Cost +2 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength, lead blades
(Advanced Player’s Guide), righteous might or giant form I
James Jacobs (Creative Director)
So based on the content in this, James feels that Bashing shouldn't apply to the shield spike, but isn't saying that that is an official ruling, instead leaving it up to DM interpretation. Depending on your DM, it's possible that this combo would only bump the damage up to 2d6.
About time we got the shield rules right.
Captain America is disappointed in all the shield haters.
Unfortunately for Captain America, these numbers only work on a Bash, they don't work if you're throwing the shield.
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So based on the content in this, James feels that Bashing shouldn't apply to the shield spike, but isn't saying that that is an official ruling, instead leaving it up to DM interpretation. Depending on your DM, it's possible that this combo would only bump the damage up to 2d6.
Everything in the game is up to DM interpretation. Basically, if your DM allows all those things to stack, then it'll work as you say.
But since Impact is made with Lead Blades, and lead blades deals damage as one size larger than it actually is, I could see it not working with Bashing. Since a medium Heavy shield normally deals 1d4, lead blades would make it deal 1d6 regardless of what other things are going on. (Meaning what it "actually is" is 1d4, even though other magic is causing it to deal damage as if it were larger)
Shield weapons are a huge mess, and I don't see any real RAW result coming from it without a full blog post or something. To enchant as a weapon it must be masterwork, does a masterwork shield (150gp MW armor) count for that or does it need to be a masterwork weapon first (300gp) and if so, does it need to be both when it's created (450gp)? Can spikes be attached and removed? Do spikes change the weapon, or can you still choose to bash with the blunt part or stab with the spike part? Does the +10 enhancement limit apply to weapon and armor enchants, or are they each separate? Does the 50% cost increase happen when using both armor and weapon enchantments on a shield? Blargh.
Being a Shield Focused PC favors unspiked shields.
Fair point. I'm also looking at the weapon dice chart again and I'm not 100% sure that I was doing the increase correctly.
So if we have a Medium Heavy Shield, it will do 1d4 damage on a bash.
Add Bashing, it goes up two steps, which should be 2d6.
Add Impact, it goes up one step, which should be 3d6?
Is there a chart somewhere that lists weapon size dice above large?
Shield weapons are a huge mess, and I don't see any real RAW result coming from it without a full blog post or something. To enchant as a weapon it must be masterwork, does a masterwork shield (150gp MW armor) count for that or does it need to be a masterwork weapon first (300gp) and if so, does it need to be both when it's created (450gp)? Can spikes be attached and removed? Do spikes change the weapon, or can you still choose to bash with the blunt part or stab with the spike part? Does the +10 enhancement limit apply to weapon and armor enchants, or are they each separate? Does the 50% cost increase happen when using both armor and weapon enchantments on a shield? Blargh.
Yep. I'm just going to hit FAQ on this post and pray.
So if we have a Medium Heavy Shield, it will do 1d4 damage on a bash.
Add Bashing, it goes up two steps, which should be 2d6.
Bashing: "A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage)."
Add Impact, it goes up one step, which should be 3d6?
Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage could be used to extrapolate that one size increment up from 1d8 would be 2d6. This follows the dice progression of Improved Natural Attack as well as the progression in Natural Attacks by Size. (The rules lose cohesion after 2d6)
Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage could be used to extrapolate that one size increment up from 1d8 would be 2d6. This follows the dice progression of Improved Natural Attack as well as the progression in Natural Attacks by Size. (The rules lose cohesion after 2d6)
Thanks, Grick.
So following a 1d4 natural attack, going up 3 size categories makes it 2d6, which puts the shield's damage in-line with a regular 2-handed weapon.
So following a 1d4 natural attack, going up 3 size categories makes it 2d6, which puts the shield's damage in-line with a regular 2-handed weapon.
Yep.
Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability.
(...)
In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.
(That was in reference to Bashing and Shield Spikes, but I think it applies here as well)
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Also, as I understand it, shield master removes two-weapon fighting penalties when using a shield. Get TWO heavy shields of ridiculous and begin smashing the game. Also you're dual wielding so pick up two-weapon rend while you're at it.
If you're using the shield's defensive enhancement bonus for attacks, make the spikes +5 defending and get +5 AC for each shield without any penalty to attack.
EDIT: no, shield bashing isn't broken at all...
If you're using the shield's defensive enhancement bonus for attacks, make the spikes +5 defending and get +5 AC for each shield without any penalty to attack.
EDIT: no, shield bashing isn't broken at all...
The defending bonus only applies when you're using that weapon to attack. If you're not attacking with the spikes, that won't work.
James Jacobs: "a shield spike and a shield bash are DIFFERENT weapons (they've got different entries on the weapon table on page 142 to prove it)."
Assuming your edit was sarcastic, using the RAI to limit the cheese solves the issue pretty well.
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If you're using the shield's defensive enhancement bonus for attacks, make the spikes +5 defending and get +5 AC for each shield without any penalty to attack.
EDIT: no, shield bashing isn't broken at all...
The defending bonus only applies when you're using that weapon to attack. If you're not attacking with the spikes, that won't work.
James Jacobs: "a shield spike and a shield bash are DIFFERENT weapons (they've got different entries on the weapon table on page 142 to prove it)."
I would extrapolate that you lose your shield bonus to AC if you attack with shield spikes, since you are no longer "shield bashing", but rather attacking with shield spikes. Sounds like shield spikes just suck.